Dhananath Fernando 00:05 Dana, Ajarinda, how are you? Keeping well, keeping busy after the budget. Now it's coming to sort of a closure of the budget debate. Probably the team is getting prepared for the Christmas holidays. Yes, we do have a lot of time. Speaker 1 00:27 Not a lot, actually. We have a lot to finish before we wrap up. But I think we're all looking forward to a big break. Hopefully, yeah. As is everybody. So. charindra chandrasena 00:37 Yeah. Where were you on Friday? Dhananath Fernando 00:41 Definitely not at the rally. Not at the 21st rally. What do you think? charindra chandrasena 00:47 What are your initial thoughts about it? No, Dhananath Fernando 00:49 rather the political angle. I think the opposition. I think they are looking for the leadership, and that's more the political angle. But the more economic angle, what I could basically recall is if you recall, remember the first rally. I think they were also thinking starting in November at Nugeguda. Even the Mahinda Sulaga that rally was also started in Dugegoda. No, charindra chandrasena 01:14 2015 February or March. Dhananath Fernando 01:16 February or March, no. Yeah, it's charindra chandrasena 01:17 about a couple of months after the government, I mean, the presidency changed. Dhananath Fernando 01:23 Correct. So what I see is generally on an economic angle, Chari. When growth slows down, the the it it how shall I say the reasons pops up for the opposing parties to get together and create a alternative like narrative because, in my view, politics are all about setting the narratives. President Rajapaksa said he came on a like a strongman sort of a you know brought peace and all that, and then the second phase was more setting the narrative. I not only finished the war, I also drove the country to develop post-war development exactly, and then there was an alternative narrative. Okay, that came and came at a massive expenditure of corruption, and then it was coming to treat that corruption matter, and then the narrative changed again. While okay, you are trying to eradicate corruption first. You didn't do anything of that because you started with the central bank bond scam, and but then it was a more national. Now that's charindra chandrasena 02:24 the that's the the bond scam of 2015. Absolutely, bond Dhananath Fernando 02:27 scam of 2015. Yeah, that was the genesis of the the rally in Nuggegoder by then, right? So that basically opened the opposition to come together. I'm not again don't get it on a political sense, but that set up the new narrative, and then it slowly evolved to a national security threat, and then the alternative narrative was set. Okay, national security is in trouble, and then a new president was elected, and then if you recall, COVID came, but actually our growth slowed down before we, I mean we we closed down in March somewhere, march 19, but charindra chandrasena 03:07 30th. But Dhananath Fernando 03:08 actually, our growth was declining, and if I remember it, it was negative in the first quarter of the same. I mean, we closed down about two weeks in that first quarter, but the growth already hit a negative. Yeah, because charindra chandrasena 03:19 of the tax cuts. Because of the Dhananath Fernando 03:20 tax cut, so my experience is, or rather, my observation is, every time when the growth slows down, it gives the space for whoever else to set the narrative, and it's an evolving process. So while people can define the rally the way that they want, I also don't know whether it's successful or not successful. That is not the matter. It is the matter that people who were somewhat reluctant to associate certain brand on a branding point of view, now it's in their consideration set that they are kind of loosely associating with those. You know, charindra chandrasena 04:01 don't you don't you think that this that the crowd that came for that dana is the crowd that was in hiding, and not a new base for the SLPP as such? Could be, definitely. It's they are emboldened now because the party is making a concerted effort to bring them out of their shells. Don't stay in hiding. Hangila in Nepa. Come out. Come out and be proudly Dhananath Fernando 04:34 pohoto. Correct. You know. No, could be sorry. But that also indicates why someone was earlier even reluctant, and they were hiding. And the fact that they were now a little bit comfortable to come out and speak is also an indication. There may be it's a pyramid. No, there'll be people who were earlier completely reluctant to come out. Now they are coming out. So that means there is another layer. Also, it was not the decision hasn't been made. It's like now I am open for sort of options, or am I considering option? It's like you know you bought something. There is a point that even whoever competitor comes, you are just decided. No, I am just buying this particular product from this particular shop, but there's a moment maybe I consider other option. Maybe I'm still buying that from the same shop, but now I have given an appointment to someone else to have a chat, have a conversation. So I think I'm not saying whether it's successful or not, but I think it's important indicator for the reformist to think about whether the growth is sustainable, whether it being felt by the people, because if the economic growth slows down, because what I believe is Chari, the worst enemy of the poor is inflation. The best friend of the poor is economic growth, including the middle class, because when the economy grows, you it will create more employment opportunities, more jobs, better jobs, better revenue because someone's expenditure is always someone's income. So when the economy grows, people will spend more. That means people will earn more. So if it slows down, maybe it's time to think, and that's why I think we have always been saying do the hard reforms in the first 100 days. Now, of course, as you said, the first Nuggegoda rally in 2015 came after bond scam in like few months after just forming the new government. But now this came after about a year. So you have to be cautious as if you're on a reform agenda, let's leave the politics aside. Whether this is an indication that the growth agenda or like people really do not feel the transformation is one way to think about it. charindra chandrasena 06:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if if we are looking at it from a positive side, as far as the organisers are concerned, I think that's what they would think that this was sending a message to the government, and the government is under the false assumption that they are doing everything great, and people are so happy. This was our way of pinching them a little bit and showing them that not all is well. Correct. I think from that angle, it's fine. But just the fact that even the opposition-it was there was so much of mixed messaging there about who is attending, who is not, which party is represented, which part is heading it, who is the rally for? In the sense, is it to promote one individual or is it to promote the opposition as a whole? I I just felt it was really muddled, and it may have ended up actually achieving the opposite of what it set out to achieve, because what you don't want is to plan for something and promote something a lot and then have it be underwhelming. Dhananath Fernando 07:58 Correct. charindra chandrasena 07:59 And I felt the Nugeora Rally was somewhat underwhelming because with all that build-up, we heard about it officially. I think about a month before it happened. Yeah, you know, and with that level of build-up for a rally in Nuggegoda, Nuggegoda is that that that hall is not a big hall under the summer, and then trickling down onto the streets, even it's not a huge crowd. So for them to have that, have had that build up, and then delivered only this amount of people, and then also the videos that were going around. Now we don't know whether that was you know planned, and it was government elements that infiltrated the the rally, but people being completely inebriated, not knowing which rally they were at. Sometimes, I I don't think that that the optics were great. Right. And then the whole point of the rally, or the the the leader of the rally, was supposed to be the former president Mahinda Rajapaksa, who didn't attend, and the other leader, former president Rani Krima Singh didn't attend. So again, really mixed messaging as to you know what it is. So my Dhananath Fernando 09:12 my point was yeah on an economic point of view, just be cautious whether it's a how shall I say outcome or like you know people's even considering not it doesn't mean that they are happy with the brand or the brand was doing or like brand I sense like you know different but I meant it's not even the political party the alternative narrative that is being brought whether it's appealing or not it is just be cautious about the growth because it may be a symptom when people really don't feel the growth. They may be looking at alternative narratives, political narratives, to align themselves. I think that's what I, in my view, happened in 2010, in 2015, because it wasn't really aligning with the narrative because we said you. But even the narrative was your development hasn't really felt my cost of living is going up. I am really having a miserable life. Highways and everything really didn't transform. Yeah. And at as I mean, later on the numbers also basically pointed out it was more construction driven and a debt driven formula that we had, and it was obvious why the people made that decision. Same happened for the Aha Parna government. They came with the Aha Parna mandate, and there was a massive corruption case to begin with, and the growth was also slowing down because no serious reforms were done. No, no, no, not the state-owned enterprises were reformed, and the growth growth was completely declining. Of course, there were multiple shocks. So my point too, I mean, if someone is watching from the government on an economic angle, keeping all the politics aside. Just be concerned whether people are getting different, whether they are really whether because we don't know inflation was at 70% Whether the catching up of the wages whether it's adequate enough, whether women are happy because they feel the pressure at the household level, whether whether the employment creation and people who went abroad migrated, whether they are happy so far seems from the remittances and all that they are okay. Tourism is running well, but just check whether the growth numbers can be sustained on that front, charindra chandrasena 11:20 yeah. Just before we close on that topic, what what I one thing I like about this is that right now, what the opposition is is a little hard to say because the opposition seems to agree with some things that the government is doing, but then disagree for the sake of disagreeing with some things that the government is doing, I think the positive thing from a political standpoint is that if this is to be the next opposition, the proper opposition, there are clear differences between the government and them. You know, in terms of say racial harmony, there are clear clear differences in the in the in the narratives that are being drawn up in terms of the political culture. There are clear differences in the in the narratives that are being drawn up, and also from experience, you know, with people having seen them. So I I think on that level, it may be good for people to have those extreme ends of the political spectrum, because the middles don't really do well, like the centrist elements in modern global politics, not in Sri Lanka, they don't. They just seem to fade away. So you either go for like the far right and the or the far left, far left, right? There's no the centrist parties just seem to disappear. Dhananath Fernando 12:41 As it was said, like the the worst thing in a war is to be in the centre because you get shot down from both ends. Exactly. So you have to be quite cautious. But also, the on an economic point of view, Chari, like the Sri Lankans are, I think, also aspirational. So whether they are aspirational values being served is another thing that we have to think about because they want to have better living standard. Because let's not forget, even our GDP numbers hasn't really come up to the 2018 levels. So even it's like you know staying at the same workplace without an increment, right? So they are in a way while they are happy about coming coming out from the crisis, you are pretty much living in 2018 19. So that itself, because once the stabilities are changed, well, that's charindra chandrasena 13:30 what the president has said, right? That that next year we are going to reach 2018 levels. Correct. And I mean, I don't know how proud he needs to be of that, because essentially you're going back to a and a time that you were criticising yourself, Dhananath Fernando 13:46 correct? charindra chandrasena 13:46 Because 75 year curse includes those couple of years as well. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 13:51 Yeah. No. Yeah. No. No. Go ahead. Sorry. charindra chandrasena 13:53 Yeah. No. No. So. So he's saying that okay, we are going to reach that, but then from there onwards, say for 2828, what the goal is on on this front, Dana? I think the real problem would come yes cost of living, and tied to that economic growth. I feel like the real problem would come in terms of our servicing, the debt servicing, and he insists that he's got it under control, but without really backing it up with data. Do you foresee that being a problem? Dhananath Fernando 14:30 It's like this, Charlie. At the moment, it's stabilised, and I think the numbers he quoted was right. But the point is that, of course, no. charindra chandrasena 14:39 But but he's not quoting numbers, right? Then he's saying that from last year to this year, from 25 to 26, the increase is this percentage. Correct. From 26 to 28, it's only a little bit more. The increase percentage increase is only a little bit more. So we've got it under control. In one year, we have managed to give that increase. Yeah, that's Dhananath Fernando 14:59 why. I think you know. I think that increment is like. Of course, it's not a steep increment when you look at the data. It's not like you know this year you service like 1 billion and next year it's not like 10 billion. It's a increment is small. But the problem, I mean, what we have to be cautious is this only works till the perception and the outlook is good on Sri Lanka, that's why I'm quite I'm quite cautious about these ethnic tensions or racial tensions that was happening in some parts of Sri Lanka, because the moment that was indicated, everyone just leaves, right? Because when at the moment that happens, even just few travel advisories from some of our embassies is more than enough for us to collapse again. At that moment, this dollar flow won't happen. At the same time, when there are travel advisories, and if there's a, of course, leading to that, there can be a rating downgrade. Then your trading the businesses and everything has to pay a premium on opening LCs and all that. So then your business environment completely changes. So it is all good as long as the system remains stable. And that's why we were insisting, don't even consider jumping out from the IMF programme. Not because IMF have all the solutions; they all have their weaknesses. But that's the only, you know, game in the town. So that's where we have to be cautious. So while the debt payments are, I mean, reasonable and incremental, it only works with one condition: that the stability and the peace is assured. The moment that something happens, that's the the the context will change, and then the consequences will change. I think we kept Yasmin quite an observer. So have been Speaker 1 16:50 listening quite intently. charindra chandrasena 16:53 Yasmin, did you see this the speech that Minister Bimar Ratnayag made yesterday about in Parliament about fixing CCTV cameras in buses. I I found that quite interesting because I think buses, some private buses do have CCTV already, but I think they are trying to regulate it and make it across the board, right? And I think that's a great initiative because he says explicitly that it is for I mean to eliminate or minimise gender-based violence, mainly harassment, right? He's talking about, and I think that's a good step, right? So you can give me your thoughts because, and obviously you'll be able to relate to this more. But what I've heard throughout and what I've seen throughout over the years is the level of harassment that girls and women face, and when I say girls, I mean I'm not even talking like 18-year-old girls. I'm saying sometimes younger than that. That they face is Dara. You and I just can't relate. In the sense we would never. We can empathise, but I don't think we can ever understand. Somebody, this girl once told me that you won't feel it because you won't have this feline sort of feeling on your like cat-like feeling on the back of your neck when you're walking down a dark alleyway at night. Right. Right. Dhananath Fernando 18:40 Right. charindra chandrasena 18:40 For us, it's about getting like robbed or something. Dhananath Fernando 18:44 Right, right. But charindra chandrasena 18:45 you won't have that sort of real fear, Speaker 2 18:47 right? charindra chandrasena 18:48 So, just I feel like this is a good initiative in terms of it'll make people cautious, the perpetrators cautious. Your thoughts? Speaker 1 18:58 No, I definitely agree. This would, this will like if it's implemented and if it's implemented as fast as it can, then I think that would definitely prevent or at least you know minimise the level of sexual harassment that happens in public transport because I mean I don't think everybody understands. Firstly, for me, I'm just like personally very shocked that this has the government hasn't taken a step like this all this time, and finally, you know, I mean, they're trying to implement something to sort of, you know, resolve this issue or at least get close to resolving it because one of the major determinants of people, you know, getting to work. I mean, the way that they get to work is through public transport. Not everybody can, you know, afford private transport. They don't have their own vehicles. They don't have, you know, the money to be able to afford tuk-tuk rides or whatever, right? So it's mainly public transport. So if that, if that mode is the is, you know, the. The aspect that is preventing women from working or getting to work, that is a serious issue, right? And I think even in your conversation, Dana, about growth and how you know we can't realise the real potential of Sri Lanka's growth if we don't consider the women. And like I was just, I mean, we've been keeping track of like female labour force participation. Last year, that was not last year, 2023. It was around 31.3% of women who were actively involved in the labour force. In 2024, it has dropped to about 29.8. So I I don't think I mean not that there has been a declining trend over the years, like consistently. But as you can see, like with even though the economic situation is supposedly getting better, why are women like you know why are we not seeing that being reflected in the female labour force participation rate? Of course, why women are not being involved in the labour force? It depends, and I mean, I think we we all won't be surprised by the biggest reason being. No, charindra chandrasena 21:04 and and and interestingly, this is actually coming less than a week after this businessman's wife on a podcast actually said something along the lines of that a man wouldn't try to harass a woman unless there was some sort of signal from her side, and and and that men don't proactively do it unless there is some sort of invitation. Now, I mean that is not my experience, right? Or that is not the experience of the people that I've I've spoken to. You don't really need to even make eye contact, and without Speaker 1 21:43 need to be. I mean, if you are in a hijab or an abaya, you can still apparently invite that kind of behaviour. So, so the invitation is is charindra chandrasena 21:52 is in the mind of the perpetrator, right? Speaker 1 21:56 Exactly. And Dhananath Fernando 21:57 also, Chari, on I think on Yaspin's point, the public transport because I think for them, I mean for all of us, it's a cost factor. Because if they, I mean, if someone works at about 630, 7o'clock, definitely they have to take a two-corak cab. But even if you have, of course, we really do not have like you know the last mile like sort of a bus service, or anyway, you go somewhere and then you get down and then you take a tuk or something, for like you call the last I think the last mile travel. So, but the challenge is after 730, before you get into the last mile, you start it from here. Like if imagine if I live in Morotua, it would be convenient for me if I have a public transport where I go to somewhere close by and then take a took from there because then it's I have my expenditure would be only for that last mile. But now after 7o'clock you have to start the ride from here, which is very expensive on on one side. So that ultimately adds to the I mean your work related cost. So then women really do not see a reason because ultimately I have this experience at my household. Like at sometimes you know when you go to work, it I mean if you not go to work, it's more profitable than going to charindra chandrasena 23:15 work. Yeah, Dhananath Fernando 23:15 because all the costs related to like your transport, then you have to have a you know separate like a trans. What do you call the office transport? Your everything that you put together and the hustle that you need to go through to all that and the additional resources that you have to hire instead of you going to work. Everything put together is more expensive than the salary that you draw because everything adds up. So in that sense, it's very important. But I think one thing that we need to be cautious is how are we going to really sustain this because it's a right decision. But we have to look at the models how people have adjusted. Again, this is not a paid advertisement. If you look at, I think there's this. I I met that gentleman who runs. I won't mention the names, but they run, for an example, a transport system which is centrally every bus. I think they have about I don't know 50, 60 buses. Every bus has a CCTV, and you can monitor the driver, and it indicates like if the driver is feeling a sleep and all that, it indicates right. And there's a central control system 24/7, so actually you can monitor, and if something happens, if an accident happens, you basically can detect. So this Speaker 1 24:29 is in Sri Lanka. This is in Sri Lanka. This is in Sri Lanka. So charindra chandrasena 24:32 there are there are systems like that where which are custom made for buses. I mean not custom made for buses, but made for buses, which, like you said, and there's what is this the infrared scanners also sometimes, and yeah, there's a lot of gadgets there, but I think is the government trying to do that entire. Thing now, or are they just trying to focus on the gender base? I Dhananath Fernando 25:04 think they are mostly trying the gender base, but I think what they could have thought is how you can you know the scale of it because you are really running out of time. So the scale because government definitely cannot go and fix CCTV cameras, so they have to bring the regulatory front of it. Probably when they do that, some of the cost factors for the public transport may go up, but that's fine. At least you have a safer because safety is number one, and then the government can think of, for an example, since they are also going away with this pilot project on tap and go. So imagine if it adds a cost to the service provider. Maybe if the government is so concerned, they can add like an allowance that they endorse, or like you know they give an additional allowance to fixing those safety measures at the beginning. Not necessary, but that's the way to think about it, in my view. Because then you combine everything together, and rather than this one individual, because then you can give the responsibility for the transport companies and all that who can really look at the system, and it's also it's you know centrally it's I mean for monitoring it's easier and even the tap and go so then because if you recall Charin the Uber now even an Uber and pick me now if you left something basically I mean, you are, you know, you are safer in that environment. And even I recall someone was saying, Indika was saying this that he, I think, he was in US, and because he was on roaming data, roaming he was got the cab, and then he switched off data, and actually there was a call came to the Uber driver asking whether are you safe because the person who did I mean booked the ride he is now not responding it's fairly a longer ride and then he was asked whether the driver is safe or whether the passenger so with that digital enhancement there's lot can be done now I was using office transport before I mean that bus driver used a very simple technique. As we all know, the WhatsApp has the option of sharing the live location. So when the bus leaves from wherever he starts, he shares the live location. So I can basically track where the bus is and leave office. So then I don't like you know stay at the road for too long. I know where it comes and I know where the bus is, and then it same he does when he comes in the morning. So it's very convenient whether there has traffic jam or something or whether it comes early, and it all indicates on just on a WhatsApp group. That but that I think it's very primitive, but it still charindra chandrasena 27:39 it Dhananath Fernando 27:40 gives so many options when you have a more individual, or I mean, the private enterprise come into play. It's there, as has been said, like you know the the highway buses and all that comes at a fairly higher rate. But at least it's con. I mean, if you add all the other costs, your inconvenience and all that, it costs you more. Yeah, Speaker 2 27:59 then and charindra chandrasena 27:59 most people will be willing to pay that extra couple of rupees just to have a greater level of comfort, Dhananath Fernando 28:07 and their next available alternative is much expensive than paying that extra, which is a cap, which is a cap or charindra chandrasena 28:16 a took, right? Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 28:17 So, so I think that's important for growth aspect. But it would also, Yasmin, would be interesting to see now with the census and statistics data, the number of marriages are declining, and the number of kids, the the child population is also declining under dependability ratio. So, with but it would be a very small percentage. I mean, our female labour force participation rates are quite. I mean, very low in the region, so it may not have a big impact. But whether that will, because if the child care is the problem, whether with that child population coming down, whether they are actually open, but it's still a small percentage. Yeah, charindra chandrasena 28:57 I. But I'm quite interested to know the. So you are saying it's trending in the wrong direction now. We used because the last time I checked, we were in the 30 to 35 range. So now you are saying we have gone into the high 20s. Okay, and is there any sort of analysis that has been done by the census department about the reasons for this. Speaker 1 29:24 So there's a section in the Labour Force Survey Annual Report that basically just identifies why are people inactive. They don't specifically look at women; they look at both men and women and the reasons for why. So as I mentioned, like most of the time, it's because of the fact that they are engaged in housework. That is the biggest reason. That is, you know, constantly year on year. That is the reason that is kind of put forth, right? So they don't. I mean, there's things like other, but we don't know what other means, right? But and other than that, there is retired or it's old age. Yeah, but that's age-wise. So we charindra chandrasena 29:59 are taking. In the economically active, yeah. So Speaker 1 30:02 yeah, that's of say charindra chandrasena 30:03 18 to 3540, even. I think, Speaker 1 30:07 like in our research that we've done, and even the policy briefs that we have put out, if given, but just going with the data that Department of Census and Statistics is saying, which is that if engaging in housework is the biggest impediment to women being part of the labour force or contributing or being employed, you know this whole aspect of legalising or even fully recognising flexible and work from home arrangements can go a long way. So I know that today's conversation was dominated by the whole public transport problem, but the question of why are women not in the labour force, it's a very multifaceted kind of issue, right? So even things like like I mean, for me also, if like if if not only for me, but like I think for most women, if that you know flexible option was given, I think our willingness to sort of give back to work, be employed for longer hours, be employed for longer periods. That willingness is higher. So, but right now in our laws we have not recognised it, right? And there's been no, but I charindra chandrasena 31:14 mean, work from home Speaker 1 31:16 is. I mean, it happens. Is charindra chandrasena 31:17 far more recognised now than say five years ago. Definitely, Speaker 1 31:20 definitely. But if there is recognition from the government, like the law recognises that okay, this is this can be provided by the private sector employee or even you know public sector whatever it is. There are like when it is identified by law, then there is also a framework within which those you know allowances can be given because right now with the absence of it, I mean it's not being recognised in the law, and that therefore there is an absence of a framework. So when someone is given work from home, as opposed to like okay, let's say take a typical male and a female colleague. A female colleague requests to work from home. A male colleague would be like okay, I don't mind working from home or coming to work. But then both employees are given the same amount of annual leave, same amount of casual leave. So, should the private sector employer, you know, be guided by certain frameworks on you know how that leave should be distributed? If someone not only work from home, but like even if they have worked for like less than 40 hours a week, is there a way in which that can be prorated, so none of those things have been outlined in the law, as per my understanding. But if these can be addressed in the law, then I think it can go a long way in making it more accessible and for even employers to be willing to sort of give those options to workers, right? So, yeah, charindra chandrasena 32:39 I have a I don't know this is a different view, but now take about if we stick on the transport one, stick to the transport one after 7 p.m. If I'm not mistaken, female employees need to be given transport, staff transport. Men don't have to be given; they can be given or not be given. There itself doesn't it create a certain imbalance because you have to factor in that full cost also when you're making that hire, especially if it's a female employee who is like in Nigambo or wherever, right? It's a whole different deal then. So the solution to that is either that the government subsidises the the recruitment of women, or creates a safe environment that doesn't require women to be given special transport arrangements. Speaker 1 33:39 Exactly, and and charindra chandrasena 33:40 that's what I why I feel like I've always believed in the night economy. Just because it keeps the lights on, it keeps people out of the house. So then your it's not much different to what it is at daytime if you're travelling at night. Yes, I mean it's never going to be the same, but that's the case in any country. And the transport trains are operating, buses will be operating, cabs will be abandoned, and and just creates a whole new society. Dhananath Fernando 34:17 No, you were spot on. I think you looked at the on the cost point of view. I think on labour force, Shari, everything has to be regardless of its gender aspect. Of course, definitely for the gender aspect. Looking, it is important looking at the cost aspect. Now, for an example, for household work, how can we make it efficient? For an example, at a household, how many of Sri Lankans can afford a dishwasher, how many of them can afford like a four burner cooker? Because that makes a significant difference when you get work done. Because you know you can cook four curries at the same time versus if you have one or two, because it adds to the time cost. Ability of reforms because when you do the labour reforms, when there are no jobs, they will ask like, okay, now you all all the time you advocated for labour reforms, and now we have done the labour reforms, but there are no jobs. But of course, there are there can be no jobs because unless you do the investment and the trade reforms, or like you do the investment and trade reforms, and investors coming and saying, look, now you have done the investment, but we are not coming because you really do not have the labour force flexibility. So you have to do like a radical set of reforms to really see the transformation. The problem is everyone doing some one thing at a time, and then they are asking results. That is the challenge of this reform game, because you need to do a significant proportion to really see the growth picking up, and for people to feel lives are getting transformed. Otherwise, every three four years they will have a hope. After three to four years, they will see. I mean, they may consider an alternative political narrative. I'm not saying a political party, alternative political narrative, because it's easier to connect with some narrative and think that was the root cause, rather than really understanding it's a more economic growth challenge. And we will repeat, in my view, that is exactly what is taking place over when there was war. We thought this was the war, and war ended, and then we thought it's corruption. Then now we, you know, narrative changed, and then we thought it's like you know unfortunate incidents like COVID and all that. Now it has also moved, and now they are saying it's you came to power by you know floating lies and all that, and probably there'll be a point that we will come to realisation. No, that was also not. But unfortunately, bringing all that is is also difficult because the problem itself is too complicated. There has to labour side. There's a investment side. There's a soy side. There's a macro side. There's a monetary side. There's public transport side. There's a gender side. There's a population dynamic. It's so complicated. There are so many variables acting at the same time. And these complicated charindra chandrasena 42:07 narratives never work, no, Dana, for people. Right? It's easier for them to, you know, like condense it all into one big reason of either immigration or This something else, you know, which is simpler to understand. But yeah, we covered a lot today. I want to touch on one thing before we end. That is something that was discussed in Parliament yesterday about Sri Lankan Airlines, which is running without a CEO, and this opposition politician MP was asking about it from the government. Why do you not realise that, you know, if something happens, you need a CEO to take responsibility. The buck has to stop there. Just your thoughts on the fact that there is no CEO appointed yet, and the unions may have a lot to do with that as well. You know, the non-appointment, and also last week the Sri Lankan Airlines foreign debt was restructured, and a haircut has been provided. So, just final thoughts on that? Dhananath Fernando 43:22 Yeah. So, I think it's I think it's good that we somehow managed to come to some level of agreement on the debt restructuring on the Sri Lankan Airlines bond, and shows how detrimental is this bond restructuring. CEO appointment. I think my view, Chari. Those are all quite minor. I mean, it's a big issue, but solving the problem, bringing a new CEO. I mean, definitely we have to bring a new CEO. We cannot wait. But that is just like you know, at a surface level solution. You are look. You need to look at a more deeper restructuring of the lot of state-owned enterprises. You are. You will. Other thing is a new CEO comes. At least we have to give him two years to perform. So what are we going to do after two years? Even if the still results were. I mean, even we were not performing well when we had a CEO. No. Since like from 2000 after Emirates, I think Peter Hill after he left, there were CEOs. No. Till then, but still we were lost making. So, I mean, all those are issues, but the problem has to be looked at at a more macro level. What are we? Because the problem is even you cannot. It is in a stage that you really cannot even restructure the airline. That's the bigger problem, in my view. So, I think all those conversation helps. And at the same time, as we said, it has an excellent safety record, and it has an emotional connection to people, and people may not be open to think to that extent. How can we run like you know without? I mean, how can a country be like without an airline? Of course, there are a lot of global studies that I mean, there are enough countries without a national airline or a state-owned. Airline, but you know those are all adds up to when it comes to reforms because you cannot really avoid those sentiments also because ultimately it adds up to the political narrative. But I think it's important that the government takes a serious look at what is going on, and I think it's also not good on their political credibility as well, because this is a monkey charindra chandrasena 45:24 on their back. Dhananath Fernando 45:24 This monkey every quarter when the profit and loss accounts are indicated, and given the narrative of, but charindra chandrasena 45:31 but they are done. It's operational loss, right? Talking about so no, it's not. Yeah, we are not talking about an operational loss. Dhananath Fernando 45:39 It's operationally profit, profitable, but there's a net loss because of the finance cost. Yeah, charindra chandrasena 45:44 exactly. Dhananath Fernando 45:44 So you look at on a overall point of view. charindra chandrasena 45:48 Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 45:48 Let's see how after the debt restructuring whether there will be some relief on the finance cost. But again, as we know, some other rating agencies really need not upgrade our rating just because of this bond, it was that detrimental on the overall economy. Rating wasn't really upgraded because of this one bond. So, I think there has been enough commentary being made. It's just some level of action is what is required. Every time the action that we have seen is they have taken, there have been a new proposal being provided by the board of directors to the government, they think it's workable. They run for like two, three years. Then results really didn't change. Then the government changed. There's a new board of, and same thing. And I think there was enough evidence that how lot of corruption cases were related to these SOEs. So I think you have to make a. I mean, it's any. I mean, it will be people's problem, even rather the government. Of course, it will boil down to government. That's that my overall take on Sri Lanka. It will come up again and again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We will, we'll charindra chandrasena 46:51 we'll have a programme dedicated. We have had Dhananath Fernando 46:54 more programmes dedicated because it is going to come up back and forth. charindra chandrasena 46:58 Right. We have to wind up now. Do you want to do the absolutely? So subscribe Dhananath Fernando 47:05 and become an Advocata Insider. You never charindra chandrasena 47:08 let Yasmin say it. No. Speaker 1 47:09 Oh no, that's okay, Dana. You say. Dhananath Fernando 47:12 So yes, you can become an Advocata subscriber. All these programmes are brought to you free of charge because thanks to Advocata Insiders, and we thank them. At the same time, if you are an Advocata Insider, you can have access to some of our unique content and uncut versions of our podcast. So this is fully will be fully released to the general public. But there will be certain podcasts. There will be certain questions on investment opportunities that will only be open for the Advocata Insiders. At the same time on vehicle markets, on exchange rate, on SMEs. You can be any type of an entrepreneur or a banker or a insurance agent, anything. But you will have insights from us how you should run it when you are an Advocata insider. It's just 1000 rupees a month, 12,000 rupees a year, and we have different tiers which we will notify you separately. But at the moment, join as an Advocata Insider. That will help everyone to improve economic literacy in all three languages: Singala, English, and Tamil. And you can find us on Advocata Plus in Singala. Advocata Institute is in English. That's our official channel, and Advocata Kural is in Tamil, and you can find us on TikTok, Instagram, WhatsApp, any platform. It is not very difficult to find Advocata Institute. It's done. charindra chandrasena 48:37 Done, and we are done too. Thanks, Dana. Dhananath Fernando 48:40 Thanks, interesting charindra chandrasena 48:41 conversation, and Yasmin also. So we will see you guys next week. Dhananath Fernando 48:46 Take care. Take care. Transcribed by https://otter.ai