charindra chandrasena 00:00 Hi Dana. Hi Dhananath Fernando 00:08 Jarinja. charindra chandrasena 00:09 Hi Riyadh. Hi Chari. Back after a week. Back after week. Yes. The trio are back together. Three musketeers of three Dhananath Fernando 00:18 musketeers of three something else. Like in cricket, we kept Riyadh to you know become rested. Yes, for you Speaker 1 00:26 to recuperate. Recuperate from your. But he has been Dhananath Fernando 00:29 performing well. charindra chandrasena 00:30 That's why he's he's rested. He's not dropped. He was not dropped. He was rested. Speaker 1 00:39 The the pin cheater. charindra chandrasena 00:41 Yes. Let's see you pinch it today. Also, Speaker 2 00:46 let's see. charindra chandrasena 00:47 We are going to actually. So today, as we are recording, the tourism figures have come out. Did you guys see it? For the first 18 days of January, up to the 18th of January, we have got 158,787 tourists. Speaker 1 01:16 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 01:17 In 2025, in January we had 252,761. Speaker 1 01:25 Okay, charindra chandrasena 01:26 so if you take half of that January figure, that is approximately 126,000. Right. So three days past the halfway mark, we have got 158,000. So about 20,000, or a little bit more than 20,000, more than the halfway figure of last year. So I would say it looks like we are going to surpass 2025 January in 2026, right this month, but I am I am seeing a huge focus on these arrival numbers without real consideration of the actual point of tourism. Speaker 1 02:15 Yeah, charindra chandrasena 02:15 right. It's not because we want people from different cultures and different countries visiting Sri Lanka for for you know cultural diversity or anything. Yeah. Yes, that's a that's a nice byproduct. Yeah. The main reason is revenue, right? So just as initial thoughts, I'm going to ask a very blunt question from. Is the Ministry of Tourism and the Tourism Development Authority doing a good job? Yes or no, Dana? Dhananath Fernando 02:56 No. charindra chandrasena 02:57 No. Dhananath Fernando 02:57 No. charindra chandrasena 02:58 Okay. I'll I'll get your one word answer first, and then we'll elaborate. Speaker 1 03:02 No, charindra chandrasena 03:03 okay, right. I am Dhananath Fernando 03:05 putting us on the spot, but yeah, exactly. You change the bet now. Go ahead, go ahead. Now I want you to elaborate because I I happen to agree with you, okay. But let's see what we what the reasons are. Whether we agree on the same for the same reasons or different reasons. Let's start with Dana. Yeah. So why I said no was because our tourism arrival numbers are moving up, but as an overall tourism strategy positioning of a product hasn't been very weak, and tourism development authorities, not the sole agency that we have to get responsible for tourism, because it is a quite a holistic approach that we have to do. Why I think the tourism, the tourism development authority as the ministry. So, so charindra chandrasena 04:05 they will clarify that that all of it works under the umbrella of Sri Lanka tourism, correct? Which is the the real authority. Which is the light ministry. Yes, and then no, I'm not talking about line ministry. I'm talking about Sri Lanka tourism as a as a as an organisation, umbrella organisation. Under that, there is a development authority. Then there is a promotion bureau. There is a convention bureau. Correct. Correct. So, so we are talking mainly about the SLTDA and the SLTPB, the promotion bureau. Okay. Promotional, the Speaker 1 04:35 marketing arms. charindra chandrasena 04:36 Yes. Right. So, yeah. On on that. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 04:39 So basically, the the reason is our campaign is quite I mean overdue now. We haven't really have positioned the product. That's number one. The moment that you I mean the moment you take too long to position, you are also attracting. I mean you are losing your competitive advantage because others are. Positioning before you, so that's a challenge on on one side. The second is there's infrastructure challenges because the ther arriving tourists are then getting dissatisfied, and we will not be able to basically make them repeat customers, so there we have will be facing the challenge. So on that front, I say it's not a good job. At the same time, there are other lot of supporting factors. At the same time, like on the cost front, on the infrastructure front, on the digitization front, there are lot has to be done in terms of tourists, we are. I think we are probably measuring the wrong indicators. We are only looking at the rival numbers, and even if you look at last year, the rival numbers are at. I mean, record high, but in terms of earnings, which is low. But having said that, also the earning numbers have been revised, which I should give the credit to the Tourism Development Authority. Earlier, it was about 171 dollars per day per tourist, and now they have revised because they increase the sample and all that. Now it has come to about 148 dollars per tourist per night. Speaker 1 06:14 148 to 153. Dhananath Fernando 06:15 Yeah. So, so they are. I think they have agreed to. I mean, go with a more realistic number with increasing the samples. That's why the earnings have dropped, but they have adhered to kind of a globally accepted model. So that's where I see what is what is pretty much in terms of the tourism development authority's point of view. Speaker 1 06:37 Yeah. So shall I go on to remind these things? So sorry, I am looking the whole thing in on two perspectives. One thing is I'm looking at the whole experience. So, if when a tourist comes from whatever airline and lands at BIA, that airport can't handle that number of tourists arrivals or departures, right? Because anyone who comes has to go from the airport. No, so there is an issue; they have own capacity. It becomes overcrowded, delays, and all that. First impression is, as they say, first impression is bad, right? So we need to kind of look at expanding the airport. I don't know how they are going to do it because the air force is right next to it. So then they might have to relocate the air force and look at other options. That is number one, right? Because going forward with this whole system. What we are going with, we are going on a volumetric system. So on a volumetric system, more the arrival comes, we have to think about can the can we handle the capacity. So airport is one good example. Then the other one is when you get off the airport and finally you get into whatever bus or three wheel or whatever, like as a tourist or car or whatever rental, whatever you go on the highway from Katnayak to to basically Colombo. That highway, most part of it is actually dark in the night. There are no lights. Again, the main trunk road from the airport to the city, only at the intersection there is light. So that itself gives a bad impression at the beginning, so these are things you need now. For example, we say you know we need to get investors to come here. The first impression is the airport. Second impression for investor. Second impression is the highway, right? It's a good highway, but takes a relatively short time to go. But at night, pitch dark. Those are not good signs, you know. Then they think, you know, there is a electric, there is electricity, or there is a power generation issue, or there is a infrastructure issue. These are bad signs to show. So, going beyond, going beyond that, the issue what they want to the issue what we want to have is what Dana spoke about about that is 148 dollars and 153 dollars. Now, how are these guys coming into the country? I mean, the number of promotions or campaign we have done. I haven't seen one done in a very long time, right? So the campaign, everything in Sri Lanka, the way I see it, it's actually run by YouTubers, right? YouTubers, you get a few. You just go on YouTube and put Sri Lanka travel. Just Google it. You will get all sorts of videos. All sorts of videos of people who have come and all that. Now the thing with the the whole definition of YouTubers is they are also on a budget. So the guys who watch that are also the budget guys. So that's the problem with the YouTube marketing. Okay, yes, we need to be thankful them at least whatever we are getting is coming because of them because they are doing so many videos about Allah and all that. That's how the YouTubers made allah what it is today, right? They have made some parts of down south, lot of the touristy areas. They have made it their own because on the content they have put out. But the problem is YouTubers they attack people on that same category. YouTubers are not rich; these are they are on a budget themselves. Okay, so there is an issue where the promotion is being done by other people who is attracting the numbers, who are attracting people who are backpackers and budget travellers. charindra chandrasena 09:50 So on that, Riyadh, since we came to that point, there is another school of thought, right, which is one thing I think Dana already touched. That the earnings metric or how earnings are measured has been revised. Speaker 1 10:06 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 10:07 Which is most often going to be going to be taking the earnings downwards because it's a more conservative estimate than what used to be. Speaker 1 10:19 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 10:20 Right. So per tourist, the the assumption is that they're pre spending less than earlier. So if we take the earlier figure, because the comparison is always to 2018, the last normal year Sri Lanka had right. I think so. In 2018, whatever figure there is, if we assume that it's inflated, then one argument could be made that what we made in 2025 is pretty good, even with the new classification. Right. The second thing is there is that the second argument is that okay, we say these backpackers are bad because they are not spending. They are travelling in turks. Some are travelling in buses. They are staying in the cheapest accommodation available. All of that. But then, what about the the livelihoods they are supporting in the informal economy? That home. they are staying in, which may not be registered with the SLTD, but that family for a few weeks could be surviving on that tour list. Speaker 1 11:37 Yeah, right. charindra chandrasena 11:38 So like that, and then that little shop, that petty kaday or whatever that they are buying from, or the bath kade, Speaker 1 11:44 correct, charindra chandrasena 11:45 which may not be taxed, right? Dhananath Fernando 11:47 But they are similar. So how do you balance that with the the lack of tourists who are going to these five star hotels and spending, who are going on yachts and spending huge amount. Yeah, so Chari, there. I don't see a conflict in my view because it's not about whether we are going to attract like high spending tourists versus backpackers, because any country there will be backpackers. Even like how many people are doing the Europe backpacking, they do, and there are hostels and all that. They do. So the challenge is why we are not okay. I'll we'll take two sides. Let's say why we are not attracting the high end tourists. Actually, not that we. I mean, there are slight differentiation here. Sometimes there are people who really can spend, but still they come as low spend tourists because they are coming for an experience. I mean, I have enough examples that I mean, very rich guys are coming and just taking a tuk, not because like you know they are stingy to spend money, but because charindra chandrasena 13:00 tuk tuk is an experience. Tuk tuk is an experience, Dhananath Fernando 13:03 absolutely. So it doesn't mean that you are a your you should abolish that service or anything. It's because it's a service. I don't know whether you remember you being a journalist. I if I remember right, it was the Qatari Amir, right? You call the Qatar Amir Amir. Emir. I think once the journalist had captured, I think when he was in Kalamu, he had taken a took. But I think the journalists had captured and put like a image saying, "Okay, Emir has taken a toke ride, and it was. I think everyone was amazed on the journalism. Like someone had captured that, and why Emir has taken a toke? I think he experienced probably experience. So my point is, likewise, I heard a conversation on Saturday that some one of the I mean India's like billionaires took a took ride from Kalambo to Hammond Hotam on the normal road because just for the experience, right? So they are first thing is it's an experience, right? Second, as you very correctly said, it has a trickle down impact on the local economy. So we need to have backpackers, and as Riyad said, they were the one who basically found out all these obscure locations. Yeah, not like high spending guys really could do it, but so all these I love what Riyadh spoke. That's there. Second thing is on the high spend tourist field. That is the role of the other supporting industries because they come for, for an example, conferences, and we all know all people who not all people, most of the people who travel on business class, who come and stay in the five star hotels. Most of the time, it's covered from the company. Yeah, it's a private sector. No, this is the mice tourism, right? Okay, there is there is a category who comes okay to spend and you know have holidays. But this is on someone's account basically most of the time. I mean, the volume comes. Of course, there will be very isolated niche markets, people who are coming and spending time. So for that, you have to have the support system. No, I mean how many. Conference or like the conference capacity in Colombo City, or is it really out of Colombo? So those things has to consider, and at the same time, things like gaming and what they can do after the conference. So and the logistics, like whether do we have a proper domestic AR connectivity for them to quickly go to Japan or wherever and come back. So that's where the spending comes in per capita high spending coming. But without having that, without having a proper domestic network and all that, you really cannot have that you know spending jump. So I see both can be accommodated, but there are two things that you need to do to capitalise on both both markets. In my view, charindra chandrasena 15:48 yeah, because I I feel like there's a promotional gap, right? And you touched on it, Riyadh. Speaker 1 15:54 Yeah. The charindra chandrasena 15:54 fact that now recently the tourism, not recently last year, the promotional campaign that had been languishing for a long time was further delayed, and that also shows that even this government, there's a lot to be worked on in terms of implementation and efficiency, right? And and what happens is with tourism because it's such a seasonal product. Speaker 1 16:21 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 16:22 If you miss one year, or if you miss a couple of months, absolutely. If you miss, you can't do it after those two months. Dhananath Fernando 16:28 Yeah. You charindra chandrasena 16:28 wait till the next Speaker 1 16:30 season. And another thing, Shari, you have to this thing also, which currently the problems that which are happening in Europe. So because of that, that's also contributing into our cause. Another one is the weather in Europe and places which are close by, you know, for example, if you take this year, they say the winter is quite hard, right? I mean, they have I think Russia and all they had records so far. So then obviously, what they look is you know they look to go overseas, no, right? So then what happens is we benefit from that exodus also. So these are contributing factors. It's not one. It's not one you know one stream where everything comes from. There are a lot of contributing factors. Plus, in Europe, what I heard was that their cost of especially heating and all that has gone up quite significantly because of some of the restrictions. And you know, because they used to buy Germany and all, they used to buy a lot of Russian gas, right? So because there are restrictions there, the the politics of Europe and the politics of the war is also contributing into this because now, for example, staying in if you stay in Europe now, your heating is mostly from gas and prices have gone up. So sometimes it makes sense, you know, to come to a nice warm climate. But where you come, you make a holiday out of it and you enjoy the time and go. So these are contributing factors also. The only thing is like to figure out what exactly our demand is. You need to kind of categorise probably put a you know economist who specialises in tourism to basically break down to say what are the contributing factors internally and externally and figure out how much we can take. Yeah. So that I think I think at a scientific point I think the I mean what I feel is the tourism board hasn't taken into consideration. No, so that charindra chandrasena 18:03 that's that's an important point because I think we talk about promotions and Speaker 3 18:08 yeah, charindra chandrasena 18:08 you know that we haven't taken it out. But I think what's more important is to figure out the capacity. Yeah, in the country. Yeah, capacity for different segments of tourists. Speaker 1 18:19 Yes, charindra chandrasena 18:20 right. That backpacker is not going to be able to afford the the five star hotel, but also the guy who's coming for the five star hotel is not going to be at a homestay. Absolutely. So for these categories, you maybe you can have three tiers, three categories: the mid level, the top level, and the backpacker. You know, young youth one. Then figure out okay for each category how many rooms do we have? Yeah, I don't know whether that kind of analysis has been done. Speaker 1 18:48 Yeah, charindra chandrasena 18:49 and certainly it has not been widely publicised. Yeah, maybe it's in some shelf at the tourist board, but publicly we don't really have that information. Information is per category how many we have? Yeah. So then, how does a national tourism plan actually materialise? Speaker 3 19:08 Okay. charindra chandrasena 19:09 Without that data, right? How do you know? So, how are these targets set? Yeah. Right. The the 3 million target for last year, how was it set? I want to know what was the scientific basis for it. Now we missed it. No, we missed it by a lot. Dhananath Fernando 19:30 Chari has a last time also you raised this like 3 million years. charindra chandrasena 19:35 I I I said middle of the year. I said we are going to miss it by a huge amount. Yeah. So last year Speaker 1 19:40 I think we hit 2.3. Yeah, 2.3 million. Yeah. charindra chandrasena 19:44 So if we miss it by that much, then for me you can't get away with saying it we are better than 2018. Speaker 1 19:52 Yeah, 25% For me that charindra chandrasena 19:54 is a fail. Speaker 1 19:56 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 19:56 Right. If you got 2.9. Point 5 million, then okay, can happen, but not by such a huge margin. So I don't want to hear this talk of we are still better than 2018. What are you complaining about? We will complain. Yeah, right. But back to the data point, if we don't have that data, how do we set these targets? Do do either of you know how the target of 3 million was set? Dhananath Fernando 20:24 I don't know. I think no one knows. Generally, we have seen this not only these government, many governments, these export targets, tourism targets are quite aspirational. They think, okay, last year it was 2 billion. Nice to have like to going to 3 billion. You know, like you know, tourists like last time 1.5 million. Let's double it. Let's make it 3 million. So I feel that's how these numbers are coming up, rather than having a quiet action plan or a strategic overview. So which which is which is my view, which is across the board the case. Yeah. Now even if you look at the Colombo port, the containers that the TUs, they are sometimes there was a reasonable plan because you know the each terminal operator's capacity. You know there is a scientific way of actually calculating it, calculating it, and you know only when you improve the capacity that you can absorb that you know number of TUs. Speaker 1 21:18 Yeah, because thing is like what from just speaking of what Dana said, does the the the port one is easier because the reason is you get the you get the throughput that was there. Yeah. Then you know the demand in India because lot of transshipment trans lot of lot of the trans how do you put it lot of transshipments are actually it goes through Colombo. So from India's demand you know these are the these are the ports that are there. So for offloading and reloading, Colombo is there. So you can look at the regional demand and make a pretty accurate estimation. Now, charindra chandrasena 21:48 and and and yeah, for the for a port, Speaker 1 21:51 the charindra chandrasena 21:51 number of containers or whatever metric is used, that is almost essential for the functioning of absolutely no tourism because it's not like that. Speaker 1 22:01 Yeah. So we can't. So in in in a continuous scenario, we can't say the one that got away. Exactly. Exactly. You can't say a charindra chandrasena 22:08 container is not going to come to the port and not be noticed. Yeah. Of course. Of Speaker 1 22:13 course, 333 have gone missing. That's charindra chandrasena 22:16 that's another podcast all over, starting from yeah, so that's Speaker 1 22:22 this thing. But just I just want to continue on something because on this now, for example, you get tourist seasons, right? So tourist seasons are basically winter is the main season. Then during summer you get a bit of people who come because in Europe and all that you have the summer break, and then some you get some tourists just ad hoc they come depending on their work schedule and whatever time they have, but the main season is is is is the winter and the winter season which probably goes up up till about March, right? Yeah. So yeah, end of Feb beginning of March it goes, but thing is you can diversify the the product. Now, for example, the hotel room you you can't just say we have a hotel. We only have we only have 90 days or 100 days where we can sell. Other days we can this thing. You can utilise the other 20, or you can utilise other things also. For example, now in Thailand they have something called 50 plus visa. So you are getting into a technical this thing because the 50 plus visa. Because I I I I recently met a friend who he is a foreigner. He is kind of applying for the Thailand one, so what he said was basically that you need to have a minimum. You need to be above 50. I'll just I just googled it actually. So I'll just go through non-immigrant OX visa for retirees 50 plus. So this is the requirement in Thailand. Finances you need 1.8 million Thai births deposit in a Thai bank, right? And have a annual income of 1.2 million Thai Thai bahts and or 3 million Thai bahts deposit held for two years. So health insurance you need to keep. I don't go into full details. Then you need to have all documentations and all that. So this is one particular area which the Thai government has had explored because you have people in the Western Hemisphere. These are early retires. These are the tech guys, right? These are the entrepreneurs, right? In in Sri Lanka, in Sri Lanka, we have the common saying, that kind of scenario. They have made their money right, and probably you know the kids are also now kind of going into university and all that. So they are feeling you know I don't want to stay in this part of Asia is much cheaper. They are getting better bang for their buck. So what they are doing is they are coming and taking a like you know they are taking early retirement in these places. So the Thai government has really explored that, and they have set the categories. That's something when we can look at, because what they are looking is they are looking at a place where the sun shines. You know, people are friendly. Cost of being is relatively cheap. Healthcare, forget about the government one, but at least private healthcare is quite good, right? And transportation is relatively okay. Right, I mean public infrastructure. So if you look and plus very important law and order, and is the city or the country clean? About 90% of that, Sri Lanka, you can tick the boxes. Yeah. Right. Only issue I am personally saying is the public transport or the transport infrastructure. Even if you get a car or a driver, still it takes long time to get from A to B, especially for travelling around the country. But apart from that, the main things we have ticked all the boxes. So that is one category we can actually think of. Now this is nothing to do with infrastructure or anything. This is government regulation. Government has to bring a policy, get it passed, right? And I mean they don't they don't even have to pass it through. I don't know if they have to. I don't know about the constitution, but basically they need to get bring it into law, and basically implement it because that that will that will address and bring in and put into law to bring in saying that you know people are like in Thailand where 50 plus retirees. It's a new visa category. It's a new visa category. Yeah, yeah. So that visa category, it's law, no. Yeah. So it has to be legally personal. So that part Speaker 2 26:03 it's up to the government. It's not Speaker 1 26:04 regulation infrastructure. It doesn't charindra chandrasena 26:06 need to go to parliament. I'm not sure. I don't. I don't know because if you're giving the new category, so Speaker 1 26:10 I'm not sure. I said I don't know because I'm not. I'm not a legal expert and I'm not a expert on the constitution. So whatever the thing they have to do, they have to do then bring those new categories to check in segments where they can bring where they can fill the hotel because there are in countries where there are agreements with hotels, especially like boutique hotels and hotels where they come and stay for six months in that hotel, right? And they get a fantastically discounted rate because they know that that room is taken for the six months. Yeah, so that's so because charindra chandrasena 26:39 Sri Lanka. So interesting point because Sri Lanka has a golden visa scheme for for investors. So a similar one could be your your proposal for retirees have for retirees. Yeah. So instead of because there are retirement communities Speaker 1 26:54 now. Correct. charindra chandrasena 26:55 In Sri Lanka, not very popular, but globally there are retirement communities. In Sri Lanka, it's it has some stigma to it now. Yeah, if a parent goes to that kind of so so Speaker 1 27:05 there are retirement now. For example, the I've seen in Pillianthal near the Kahadu entry. There is a project going on where they say it's a golf pretty golf. Yeah, so that is more like a retirement community. But the problem is it's made for Sri Lankans. Yes, not for foreigners. The reason is because we have the legal barrier. One thing is foreigners can't purchase land here. The only thing they can purchase is condominiums and apartments, right? So there are those kind of bottlenecks that are going. Yeah, but that will charindra chandrasena 27:30 not be a problem here, yeah, because the model that they are currently using, these apartment places around Battalla also, it's like villas, yeah, right, but it's expensive, so it's the top end of the. No, but even Speaker 1 27:44 villas, I think it goes as villa goes as a house. No, so I think means real. Foreigners can't purchase houses. charindra chandrasena 27:49 No, no, you, you can't. I'm not talking about purchase. Oh my point. The retirement. You can rent. Yeah, Speaker 1 27:52 you can come and rent. Yeah, exactly. But only thing is they need the visa category because because the current visa category you don't have it. So Thailand has already done it. We need to follow. So best part to do is don't try to reinvent the wheel. Check what has successful been done in another country. Go and ask them, right? Go and ask them from the Thai embassy how they have done it, right? And you can basically get the this thing. You you can basically get the details. Implement it yourself here. I mean you don't have to reinvent things. I mean if other people have done successful projects, and if Thailand in Sri Lanka probably ticks the same boxes, then it's very easy to implement it here also. So these are things I think you really need to look at. charindra chandrasena 28:30 Yeah, because they are thinking about right now an off-season campaign. So Speaker 1 28:34 this is perfect for that. charindra chandrasena 28:35 Yeah. So off-season campaigns, of course, I have heard about in Sri Lanka before, but I don't know the success of those off-season campaigns. I'm not sure. Speaker 1 28:44 You're in middle of the monsoon, right? So then, in terms of the sightseeing, how much of it is exactly practical? So that's the thing. That's the thing, Charlie. Because one thing I've always noticed in Sri Lanka policy or whatnot is the lack of common sense, right? So that is something that really lacks in Sri Lanka. So before you do something or you plan something, you don't need experts. Just use common sense. Check the seasonal cycles and all that, and check because nobody wants to come and go sightseeing in the rain. So that's that's what I'm charindra chandrasena 29:13 saying. So one is common sense. Yeah, and that's why they say the problem with common sense is that it's not that common. It's not that correct. Absolutely, that's one. But the second thing is data. For me, data is super important for port. We took the ports example. It has to be data driven, and therefore it is. But because you can get away with doing dualism without data, I think that so SLTDA has a has a comprehensive update every couple of weeks where it shows which countries are. But is that data being used? Are the numbers being crunched to make projections and forecasts? I don't know. Okay, it doesn't appear that way. Dhananath Fernando 29:56 Yeah. So no, 100% I think the. Tourism Development Authority. I think they they they they process quite a lot of data because generally they release the data with the month end and how and Speaker 1 30:11 and and it's very straightforward to government institutions. Immigration will probably give them you know they must they'll end of the month they'll be sending the the rival sheet. Dhananath Fernando 30:18 Yeah. The other point, sir, I want to add is also the other parts that the ecosystem needs to support. For an example, most of these hotels. I mean, there are multiple restaurants. I mean, the the five star ones, right? Thai restaurant, Indian restaurant. You know, and basically that's where the the the additional revenue the hotel is being generated, so there you need to have like lot of flexibility on to improve. I mean maintain the quality because for example in a Thai restaurant you have to have a Thai chef. If it's a Japanese restaurant you have to have a Japanese chef. So bringing them down, giving them the employment opportunities, paying them the market salaries, you need to have those regulatory frameworks supportive to get that done. Number one, number two is also in a hotel like many people who come are like probably they be I don't know depending on the context, but let's say they come for probably for the room or bed and breakfast, and then they want to explore these restaurants and all that, and you have all these price ceilings and all that flow rates for hotels, which doesn't work. The other point is, at the same time, all these hotels has to be renovated every five years because rooms are getting old and new designs are coming up. So, for that, your cost of construction has to be low because otherwise that will add it to the room rate. Then you are becoming uncompetitive. So there you have to basically you know think on those aspects. And now I think industry have evolved to an extent. Now even most of these apartments are basically. I saw a lot of apartment developers are promoting the apartments, saying that you can earn like a fixed revenue because you basically rent it out for tourists. So now there's a hotel. I mean, apartments are also now competing in a way without it. Yes, they do their own thing and then they leave. So, but again, that also adds to the cost of construction because they are evolving, and also the importance of the, I mean, allowing the private sector and public sector to work together. For example, next to our office, like look at the museum. I mean, I haven't, I hardly see any tourists visiting that museum. And I mean, there's no schedule, nothing, right? There can be lot can be done. And even if you go to USO, you know, what they showcasing is not like magical stuff because I remember quite well they have I think black Afro American Museum yeah they has a they have displayed Carl Lewis gold medals yeah I remember right if I remember I think he has won about seven medals there has only six medals and the story was given what happened to the other medal. Basically, he has basically given it to his father because his father was his inspiration. And when he father died, he has basically you know buried the gold medal, which is the most valuable one, with his father's body. So a little thing like that has gone into museum, and there's like massive museum. I mean, I'm not saying we have to replicate the museums. So charindra chandrasena 33:23 I, I, I haven't been to this museum in years, so I don't know the current state of it. Speaker 4 33:27 Yeah, charindra chandrasena 33:27 but it doesn't look like it can compete with regional museums even, let alone you know Western world museums. And Dhananath Fernando 33:35 even if you go to like Andradepura, the Sigiriya, I mean, there's lot can be shown. That's the thing. So that charindra chandrasena 33:41 actually brings us to even a more fundamental point because another problem I have, and this is not limited to this government, but with Sri Lanka tourism, is we we just don't have that packaging talent. We have the natural beauty, right? But how is it packaged? Is he giving a package? For me, it's not. It's all packaged. No, it's not. Speaker 1 34:05 No, all the was to package because ella was never developed. No, it it it. That's my point. That's an organic development. No, so thing is you need to. So it's reactive. React. No, it's reactive. So thing is, it has to be like when you do marketing, it has to be itemised. No, Dhananath Fernando 34:17 you don't Speaker 1 34:17 sell the same thing over and over. It has to be itemised. Now, for example, Jetavarra, which nobody even thinks to go and look at, it's the heaviest brick building in the world. That's something I don't think even Sri Lankans know. Because I was in the quiz teams or because of that. So because of that, we used to study all this stuff just for just to this thing. But Jetavarama, if you take red bricks, it's the heaviest and the biggest red brick building in the world. Now that itself is a marketing thing. No, that's the biggest in the world. Like if you say something is the now, for example, in Romania, Chaukey Cos Chaukes Palace is the heaviest building in the world, right? And people go to just to see that because that's the biggest marble building in the world. So like that, you need to find what's the significance of that, and you need to market that, right? Now. Siri has been marketed again by the YouTubers, where they are saying palace on the palace on the skies, which virtually it is that is what the tourist bird should have done, right? So they said, yeah, it's exactly you know fifth century, fifth century, fifth century, right? Fifth century palace on the skies, Kashapa's refuge. So, so you need to go itemise it. Then only the uniqueness comes out. That I don't think. So what we try to do is we try to sell everything together. No, I think you need to individually itemise it and say, okay, if you go to Siriya, you you see this, you see this, you see this, and you see this amazing palace on the skies, right? And if you go to Jethro, you will see the heaviest brick structure in the world. You can't say building structure in the world. So then everyone like people like okay what the I thought this was the big I thought Taj Mahal was the biggest one. So it creates kind of you know intrigue in the public and discussion and all that. Then it can intrigue in here. So there are buffs who like to go and see this stuff, right? And they will go and see it. So these are things you need to these things. So you need to itemise. Another thing is, I don't think the Sri Lanka tourism. I don't know if they have it. And as you said, it might be in some shelf in inside the inside the archives where every tourism asset that we have, mostly it's public. Yeah, has have they been itemised or have they? No, that's that's put into inventory. While charindra chandrasena 36:19 you were talking, I was just looking at Pahiangala, right? And Pahiangala has the oldest bones found in human bones found in South Asia. That is 33,000 to 37,000 years old. Yeah, 33,000 to 37,000 years old. Speaker 1 36:39 Is charindra chandrasena 36:40 that even being marketed? Speaker 1 36:42 No, it's not. And charindra chandrasena 36:43 then that same rock, right, is supposedly the largest natural rock in South Asia. Okay, so there you go. So is any of this being marketed? We have a UEFA. I'll tell Speaker 1 36:55 I'll tell you things. Another few words. We have a UEFA rock in Poland. I can't remember the name, right? It's there. It's called the UFO rock because it's it's it's it's it's it look it's natural, but it looks like stuff. Then the other one is if you take Balangoda, these are small things. In Balangoda, is where the steel furnaces were. They were completely fed fed by the wind, right? And because of that, they could make a particular style of steel, which is of very high quality. And there is a room. I don't know. I stand to be corrected. There is a room saying that that for Damascus steel, which is known as the strongest blades in the world, was was actually the steel. The oh iron ore was actually sent from Sri Lanka. So there is a talk of that. I'm not 100% sure. I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong. But tourist, you need to go and you know, tourism has to work with archives. They have to work with with the ministry, archaeology, with archaeological department, and they need to kind of see what can be marketed as tourism, because we are not historical stuff, right? So that part I'm not sure if it's been done because one thing is you need to inventory and you need to itemise it and so separate. charindra chandrasena 38:00 When this government came and and and Dana come in here when this government came, it had a city branding plan. Dhananath Fernando 38:08 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 38:09 Now I don't know what happened to that plan, whether that's in motion or not, because they were talking about branding Anuradhapura. Dhananath Fernando 38:16 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 38:17 You know. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 38:17 President mentioned that. charindra chandrasena 38:18 Yes. Right. Branding candy. Now I haven't heard much on that. After that, and I don't think to brand it takes more than a year. I mean, come on. Okay, it has to work faster. How many cities the urbanness of Colombo? But even Colombo, the nightlife is not up to the mark because you are not going to get the nightlife apart from in Colombo, L, yeah, and down south, Speaker 1 38:44 correct, in Sri Lanka, yeah, Hirikatti and all those, charindra chandrasena 38:47 yeah, yeah, that's down south, correct. Sir, Dhananath Fernando 38:48 yeah, so go exactly. charindra chandrasena 38:50 No, so I'm saying, why not capitalise on the USP? You can have the party stretch down south throughout, extending from Una and Hika, all the way to Matara and beyond, Dhananath Fernando 39:02 and then charindra chandrasena 39:03 you can have the the the religious tourism going to Kandy, Anuradhapura, Jaffna. You can have a different kind of vibe where you give that South Indian feel through the architecture, through the culture, different different paths, right? The beautiful beaches of the East Coast. So why is it not being the wares of Putlam like that? Dhananath Fernando 39:24 My diagnosis is Shari. Those things don't take place happen because the issues are fundamental. Okay. Let's say you want to make that Unawatuna Gall stretch the party stretch. Definitely, you have to have more and more beer and alcohol licences. Let's face the reality. Speaker 1 39:41 Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 39:42 Without removing that, like I mean, if every recipe, because parties government cannot run parties, it has to be run by whoever who understand what a party is, right? He just I met someone someone who was a Sri Lankan who lives in UK, Tamil gentleman. He moved back to. Sri Lanka because he loves to do DJ, so he's like running a restaurant and a DJ something in down south. So I'm sure there are plenty of I know like you know this is like very isolated examples. I'm sure there'll be plenty when you go to that area. But what you can do is facilitate when you when you remove those barriers, then the party starts taking place. But when you don't have like you know, when you can't access like a legal, it doesn't mean that you know the the to solve the tourism problem, it's all about issuing legal licences. But when you do that, only things takes place. Now even your far here and gala example, I mean whether the government can go and market it, it has to happen by the whoever who is running it, right? So that's where if there's an archaeological restriction in the sense, there has to be a partnership with the archaeological department in a way to protect what is there at the same time. So without keeping that, you know, having that openness to the process to the private sector, whoever to work with that. There is no point. charindra chandrasena 41:02 But my point is there. Who takes the initiative? The government has to take the initiative. That's my point. Absolutely. So I'm saying the initiative is not the government. Dhananath Fernando 41:09 Absolutely. Government is not even government charindra chandrasena 41:10 doing it all by itself. Dhananath Fernando 41:12 Absolutely. They have to take the initiative. The other parties can join and make it happen. Yeah. So they have to have a some expression of interest on you know listing because some of these archaeological sites can be maintained to like museums, some restaurants, some whatever that thing. Keeping that value, how you are going to generate money, and that's how you create employment opportunities and growth. So absolutely, the government has to take this area. My charindra chandrasena 41:37 point is now: say we pick out a new tourism zone in Sri Lanka. Okay, the government must give a long-term plan so that the private sector, if they want to build a hotel there, the government is not going to fund a hotel. So they have to invest. What happens if in two three years the government, whichever government abandons that as a tourism zone, all that investment is down the drain. So the government has to provide that vision, the long-term roadmap, and then the private sector will come. I am saying I am not seeing a major roadmap for tourism from the government, and it's really tragic. Dhananath Fernando 42:12 No, absolutely, 100% And also like the city planning, the traffic planning, and then when you provide that map, then the private sector investment will come. Exactly. So definitely, the government has to take the initiative, but at the same time the issue I think we are why now this tourism discussion has been like there are quite heavy players on this industry also know there are travel agents there are hoteliers there are so many people tour guides airlines so this has been a conversation for a long time, but my sense is the fundamental issues haven't changed. Government hasn't taken the initiative, opening the space for the private sector to get things done, even like the cable cars projects or what amusement parks or whatever that you have to basically allow things to happen, and you know foreign parties to come and invest. So that's how. charindra chandrasena 43:01 Do you feel the government is blocking the private sector? In a Dhananath Fernando 43:03 way, they are blocking. In a way, they are. I think I would say most of the governments really do not have the depth to even to see this, no? Because even though it could be the holiday bungalows or you know that there are a lot of underutilised resources that is there that income can be generated. Then your figures will automatically go up now. No point complaining that okay we only get tourists who are spending $141 because I mean even if they come what are they going to spend on that's the challenge I Speaker 1 43:31 mean I have something I have something really funny to tell now for example the the the priest and the nuns have addition have become more productive to tourism where they you know the additional monastery, I think it's in Hatton or something. I can't remember exactly. But the thing is, they have opened it up for tourism, right? Right. So it's an old monastery. It's privately owned. I mean, it's owned by the church, I think. But they have opened it up. So the thing is, they have taken. Okay, they have a lot of unused space. They are making news of it, so like that. To be honest, I have another view. I don't think the government should get involved in in apart from policy work, where they have to basically do a regulatory framework. And there are particular places where they can give things like tax breaks and all that. Now, for example, there are a lot of abandoned bungalows in the hills, right? So those are owned by the plantations. If you tell them, right, okay, you refurbish this, we'll give you a tax break or we'll do a tax reduction. So then they will do it. And if you rebuild one of those plantation bungalows, are beautiful, colonial over 100 years made out of stone, beautiful. There will be enough and more people who want to come and stay in those places, right? Domestic and most more importantly foreign. So for those, if you give the incentives, the investments will automatically come. Yeah, but charindra chandrasena 44:48 that's my point. Yeah, so I'm saying government two things I require from them, right? Or like would like to see from them. One is regulation in terms of the framework which which tax breaks are given to who. Speaker 1 45:00 Yeah, charindra chandrasena 45:00 the entire structure of the industry, all of that. Secondly, and maybe even more importantly, the vision. Speaker 1 45:06 Yeah, the charindra chandrasena 45:06 vision can't come from the private sector because the private sector doesn't have that helicopter view of the entire country. Only the government will have. Speaker 1 45:13 No, so there is. So there is. Give me. Otherwise, it's piecemeal. No, no. The thing is, so if you look at Sri Lanka's whatever government track record of what has happened in the last I don't know what 70 80 years. I would say if you go after vision, there's there's two parts. No, you give a vision. If the vision is correct, then it's fine. But if the vision is wrong, what they say is TNE cut net. Yeah, right. So that's the correct vision. Exactly. So the thing is that so the reason is government coming and giving vision and all that sometimes can be a dangerous thing because more often than less, lot of the things the government has done. I'm not talking about this government, previous most governments from 1948. Lot of the lot of the policies they have taken is wrong. So their historical how you they say no, you gauge the future with your performance in the past. So do you want to take the risk? So there is an issue like that. Unless if you are doing it, you need to do it properly. You need to get experts. You are a consultation. Exactly. You need then exactly you need to do it properly. charindra chandrasena 46:11 You need everybody is buying. You need the industry is buying exactly before setting that vision down exactly. So low print is exactly. Speaker 1 46:17 So if you do it with them, normally what happens is they don't go with industry. They don't go with experts. They get a some kind of committee from internal, and they do it. So if they do that, more often than not, you'll get it wrong. So if you get the industry and all that involved, then 90% you'll get it right. And even if something goes wrong, then you can point back and say, "Listen, you guys were in this committee. Why didn't you raise it? Or what happens? It becomes finger pointing. No, government did the wrong policies. So because of that we are suffering things like that. So that at the policy level they need to get the structure right. Yeah, Dhananath Fernando 46:48 absolutely. Structure. For example, if it's like Anuradha Puruge, these are the areas that we are opening up for private sector to engage in track. You bring the proposal, like someone will make it like a museum, someone will make it a restaurant, someone will make it both. So then, based on that, you basically allow it. But you basically say, okay, this is an area that we would love to really, you know, make it a touristic area, and this is expected probably like you know at the moment as per the statistics, this is the footfall, and we are we are going to increase it in that sense. The other other parties, Chari. Also, what we haven't spoken today is also the role of the other platform agencies and the networks. For an example, companies like Booking.com, Agoda, and you know all sorts of guys, because they are the one actually doing at the moment. They are the one who are doing the marketing for Sri Lanka, right? They are the main advertising agency because that gives the option like you know to search and prices comparability. Everything has been provided and discounts and all that. So they are the main. So we have to work with them and work towards it. But this is a I mean long conversation about tourism, but we had to. It's I. I still feel the problems are quite. Yeah, but just just because you charindra chandrasena 48:07 brought up Booking.com and those platforms, so at one time there was a conversation about whether they are doing Sri Lanka good or whether whether it's a it's a it's an unnecessary element of the tourism industry because that is not regulated. No, I don't really know whether Booking.com can be regulated, but there have been instances where people have booked on Booking.com, gone to the the location little place, right? It's not big hotels, and the booking is not there. Speaker 1 48:44 Okay, charindra chandrasena 48:44 right, because something has happened somewhere. So like that, I doubt that would happen with the regulation. So I think that also is something that needs to be looked at whether it needs to be regulated or whether it needs to be hand-in-hand partnership where the government says to booking.com. You know, just make sure your quality is assured. We don't need to take cut from you. Just we are just looking out for the tourists because it'll hurt the brand if you mess up. Yeah. So Dhananath Fernando 49:11 Chari, there the how I see it is, of course, the government can ask like for security reasons. Like I think the who have stayed in their hotels and all that. I think those information they are dear as far as I know. Those platform companies are dear with the government regulation. The other side is okay. Let's say someone like booking. I mean, I don't think without Booking.com, all these homestays and everything would be possible to begin with. And the second thing is even if say someone was like making a I mean fraud out of it, I mean, you can. How many rooms that? How many times that you can sell the room? Like, if it's a fraud, because you are going to definitely report it. You are going to comment, and you are going to be downgraded. Downgraded in the search engine. Speaker 1 49:54 And the other one is the search engine. Let's say it's booking or one of the popular ones. Let's say if it happen, keeps on happening. The number of people using it will come down. Exactly. So then you have to go into self-regulation to. And even if you have, Dhananath Fernando 50:05 you will be surprised. Yeah. Even if you go to a Colombo five-star restaurant, they are they have they are giving you a card saying, sir, like so they are taking it that serious. Yeah. Even if someone give you like a three star or a four star, they are calling and asking. What was the problem? What was the problem? Why are MSN and why you given a five star? So that rating has basically democratised and brought really the transparency to an extent because no one is now really. I mean, I am not saying discrediting what you said. No, no, there are multiple instances here. But the other side is the the platform itself has brought the transition into the system. So you take charindra chandrasena 50:50 the good with the bad. Absolutely. But can we eliminate the bad? Is what I'm saying. Absolutely, absolutely. Dhananath Fernando 50:55 So, charindra chandrasena 50:56 but yeah. So we we we are sort of coming to the end of this, but I want to, like I got at the beginning, get an overall view of okay. Now going forward, if you have one priority, I think you may be articulated it already, but just for clarity, if you have only one priority that you can state, what would it be? Or shall I get Riyadh first and come to you? Okay, so for me the priority would be so Speaker 1 51:26 it has to be something that has to be so. If you prioritise, it has to be something that has to be done quick and quite easily. I would say is look at the visa categories. Okay, that is one untapped area which you can do with without adding anything into the economy or infrastructure or anything like that, right? So I think that's the easiest. You have to give something priority which is actually achievable. Or you can say, okay, in 10 years we want this. No, this can be done immediately, right? You have 159 in Parliament. Even if you have to pass, that's why I'm saying if it comes to that, right? So you have the overall majority, and these are very easy fixes. Our thing is you don't need to go around beating the bush and getting committees and all that. Ask the people who have already done it, right? I know for a fact that the Thais have Thais are doing it now. Get their expertise in and try to implement it here. So you don't have to go and reinvent the wheel. Okay. Dhananath Fernando 52:15 Yeah, I was about to say the tourist visa categories. I think there's I think digital nomads. So you give like you know, so the OECD countries like a quite extended visa, so then they can. But if not, I would still stick to the basics. You bring the cost of construction down, which will have a massive impact on the tourism industry, like Sri Lankans because they can offer better rates. They can be competitive on one side, and then the second would be remove that flu pricing because that doesn't make any sense. Let the market decide. Let the market decide because then you can our room boys, our chefs, our support staff can earn a better service charge because then they will be spending more money on laundry, on restaurants, and other facilities of a hotel when you remove those barriers. So those were my two two advisors. charindra chandrasena 53:19 Okay, so from my end, I have a bit of a larger concern, which is that I want Sri Lanka tourism policy and strategy to be data-driven, right? Based on data and not based on somebody's preferred number. Okay, or without a hearsay, yeah, or the dream that they have, yeah, right. Because any dream has to be achievable. Absolutely, when you are a government and when you are an authority, because we talk about the promotional campaign being late. No promotional campaign is going to do much good if it is done blindly. Speaker 1 54:00 Absolutely. charindra chandrasena 54:01 So, what are we promoting ourselves as? What is our positioning, right? We have to have a position in that. Everything else can build around it, right? But what is our core market that we are appealing to? And it might not be a an income market even, right? It could just be, I mean, youth, or it could be the the like you said, the retirees or the senior level people, it could be business crowd, but but what is it? We don't have. We have had taglines. You know, we have had taglines without anything behind it. It's just a tagline. Wander of Asia or whatever it is, socially lanka. Not much behind it. So it has to be underpinned by by strong concepts, then only a tagline would work. And before any tagline, a promotional campaign or anything, the data has to be there that has to be analysed, and then the numbers drawn up. The vision can only be drawn up with those numbers. So that's what I would like to see. Jana, you have anything to? Yes. Dhananath Fernando 55:00 Promo on Advocata Inside. So yes, you can become an Advocata Inside. It's just 12,000 rupees per year per annum and 1000 rupees per month. Why we need you to support us is we are bringing an independent point of view on the economy. We are nonpartisan, independent. So and also, this is not, you know, my shop or anyone's shop. This is we consider as the shop of economic reforms, who are basically driving the economic reforms for Sri Lanka. So, to keep that independence, you can support us by supporting. You get, of course, exclusive content, but all most of the content are in Singhala. There's a separate stock market analysis that is going at the moment, which you can have the access weekly. There's about the currency depreciation and for forex markets. There's a separate segment. There's a separate segment on the land values. So there are exclusive content that only the Advocata insiders will have access, but more than that, you are supporting a greater cause of improving economic literacy of fellow Sri Lankans because content like this is provided free of charge because we have Advocata insiders. So please, if you haven't considered, consider to become an Advocata Insider, you will get exclusive content, uncut versions of our podcast. Not this podcast, but there are many other podcasts that is happening in Singhala and Tamil, so as in English. So you can get the uncut version of those and support the economic reform story of Sri Lanka to improve the standard of living for fellow Sri Lankans. All charindra chandrasena 56:44 right, all right. Thank you, Dana. Thanks, Sriad. Quite a quite a quite an energetic and interesting conversation. I hope for the viewers. Thank you for joining, and we we have Dhananath Fernando 56:57 to tell them, Chari, also to comment what topics or like what lawyers are here. Speaker 1 57:01 Yeah, charindra chandrasena 57:02 let us know. Let us know how our conversation went today, and we are open to bookies and brick paths both, because that'll the brick paths will help us improve. The bookies will help us feel good. And beyond that, tell us if there's any topic that you want us to cover, and we'll see if we can accommodate that. All right. Thanks, guys. Dhananath Fernando 57:26 Thank you. All right. charindra chandrasena 57:26 Cheers. Bye. Speaker 1 57:27 Cheers. Transcribed by https://otter.ai