Dhananath Fernando 00:19 Hello, hello! Welcome to another discussion with Dr. Sarath Rajpatiranda. If you are following us, you know what this is all about. He has authored a book, Policy Challenges of Globalisation in Sri Lanka. It's a book about Sri Lanka, and we have been kind of reviewing the chapters. And today is the final chapter, which is Chapter 12. And earlier. episode we discussed about the future of globalisation and so many episodes how this evolved and what was the impact on Sri Lanka. Dr. Ajbadhira, welcome back to our programme. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 00:55 Thank you. Good to be back. Dhananath Fernando 00:56 We have successfully covered 11 episodes. That today is the final one to discuss about overall what we need to know, what we should do, what we should not do, and kind of providing the conclusion. What are the final thoughts, Dr. Rajapatiranya, when it comes to the conclusion? Like you have analysed multiple eras, globalisation, friendly policies, globalisation, unfriendly policies, and you interestingly brought the political ideology part of it into the conversation, and the mistakes that we have done. So, what is the as a on an academic point of view, what is kind of the final conclusion by going through this process for a long time? Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 01:38 Yes, good question. Difficult, but good question. No, what we find is that when you take into so many factors into consideration, as we have done in this book, introducing new areas that we should worry about, then we see that with good policies we can achieve a lot of good things, and equally, if you have bad policies, won't give you what you are looking for. So it depends upon who is in power, the political economy part of it, and what's happening at the same time about in the political situation? While these we are looking at economic things, we can't miss the politics part of it. So chapter 211 deals with the changes that took place with the present mota, where Rajabaksha. Yes. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 02:47 So, Rajapatira, when it comes to the under the Sri Lankan context, the only I mean, kind of the globalisation friendly policies were mainly after the 1977. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 03:00 Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 03:00 So, if we were to create something back, because it was again on a political spectrum, it came after a after a crisis which people experienced and their memory was fresh because they had to stay in queues. You have shot the experience of how you had to stay in a queue and how they like basically yes, smash the milk powder tin and gave it to you, thinking that you know that I was not go. I was going to resell it resell it in the second remark. So likewise, that memory when that memory was fresh, it sometimes it supports that the people support for kind of globalisation friendly policies are quite higher, but when things are at least stable, but when people story fading away, the memory of the opposite of like the globalisation unfriendly policies. Sometimes it's kind of difficult to convince. Yeah, but it's just my opinion. But how do you see what what should be the approach in that context? Because we cannot really wait for for another crisis to move for globalisation friendly policies. Oh Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 04:10 yeah, we are good at creating crises. So yeah, that's very true. I think that we have some experience already. The public at large experience they went through a period of having difficulties, not having good things to eat, and and so that we pass that stage. After 1977, it becomes very clear that their good policies have good returns, and the other side, bad policies will have their consequences. You will won't be able to maintain the same level of revenue and same range of what people want to do, to eat and to you know. Use the money for children's education and things like that. So there's some history there, very important history that that be the book comes to will give. Right. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 05:14 Interesting. Also, Lapraj Patrina. Now, when it comes to the political involvement, because there's one chapter in particular you spoke about the political ideology. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 05:26 Yeah, Dhananath Fernando 05:27 how do you see that has to shape up because politics also slowly getting evolved. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 05:35 Yeah, Dhananath Fernando 05:35 and what we see is there is also sunset of some traditional politicians across all political parties. At the same time, there are it's slowly taking over by kind of a new generation with some roots for traditional politicians or political parties. But at the same time, that political ideology across the spectrum matters. It seems because otherwise, there's a risk that we will drift back to the same old habits. How do you analyse this context? No, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 06:09 actually, so what we have more history than we had before, and so people in no consequence of doing A and getting desire B, which is good, and consider going to C as D, I would think people learn. People learn that good policies lead to good results. That that's that lesson is learned for all over the world. The countries that have done well, they follow good policies, and so same thing applies here. Dhananath Fernando 06:40 And also, Dr. Ajveta, moving forward because in your book there were chapters about the role of IMF, the role of World Bank, the development agencies. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 06:48 Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 06:49 Now, over a period of time, that has also evolved. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 06:51 Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 06:52 Earlier, we used to get a lot of concessionary loans from these agencies, and now we are slowly again coming back to the middle-income country, and there are ways how things work. At the same time, the global political setup and the superpowers have also kind of the geopolitics side. Things have changed. So, in that context, how do you see do you see that globalisation would become kind of irrelevant in that context, or whether it would become more and more relevant than before. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 07:27 I think the latter. Dhananath Fernando 07:28 Okay, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 07:29 because there has been real experience from which people have learned. They know that certain things cannot be done. If you are not done properly, then you have to suffer the consequences of it, so there is more learning already in the system, and so when we find people losing their power because they have bad politics, there is a good lesson there, and and we have, I think we have learned the lesson. Dhananath Fernando 08:05 Doctor Badrina, in terms of the global setup, what countries like Sri Lanka should keep in mind because sometimes globalisation was also not many people really understood what it means on their view, it is like sometimes aligning or like opening up the Western countries, or there were different definitions were given which were not quite true. But with that setup, like how country like Sri Lanka, where we have a large growing superpower in the neighbourhood on one side, and also located at a strategic location when it comes to shipping, because globalisation also improves the trade and shipping on the other side. So, how? What? What? I mean, in terms of the conclusion, what we have to keep in mind? What is the framework that we should think about Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 09:00 it? Yeah, I think as we said before, we'll see how what is our history has been the post 1977 period. I think that is very clear that the period was beneficial to the countries; their income rose, and so it was overall globalisation friendly policies did well. It's very clear. And opposite countries that could not get into that type of situation following globalisation unfriendly policies, they would not grow fast. So when we look at the countries that have grown fast by our way of discussing it, they obviously they followed globalisation friendly policy, friendly policy. So globalisation works. Even today, there are some people argue that it it doesn't work. There's a different opinion, which is. Okay, only thing is they will see the consequences and then they'll say this is not a good policy. It shall be followed. Dhananath Fernando 10:08 So, in from the initial shots that we had, so in in your view, this globalisation was happening for a long period of time, and it is because people are in nature would like to get connect and improve themselves. Yes, is that's the right. I mean, rather than whether there's an alternative for globalisation, that is like the way of life. Is it? Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 10:29 There's no alternative. There's no alternative. You do well, you get good results. I mean, so there's no such alternative. But people learn. So, for example, I'm sure the economics they are teaching now is very different. The economics that they taught us, taught me, for example. The Dhananath Fernando 10:50 the final question, Doctor Ajay, now these globalisation unfriendly policies sometimes get the mainstream, or like you know, there's a tendency to consider sometimes globalisation unfriendly policies for some external shocks. For an example, as you discuss COVID, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 11:06 yeah, Dhananath Fernando 11:06 which was quite kind of unexpected and in the nature of the disease that there was a limitation or precautionary measures were asked to take to a little have social distance, but of course not to keep trade distance because that is required. But sometimes those external shocks may be you know coming our way and giving a kind of a you know yeah you they they they add like a cloud of dust and really not sure which direction it is going till it clears out. Once it clears out, everyone comes back and say, "Look, look, look, we need all sort of trade together and all that. So, how do you see those kind of external shocks, and what are good lessons that we need to keep in mind? Because when you go to that bubble, it's sometimes very difficult to think on the other way around. Yeah, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 12:02 actually, since particularly because we are very small economy, we are subject to more economic shocks than other people, countries that are large countries. But the point is that our job won't be too difficult if we know from history. We know what can doing what particular action is required, and I think on 77 we have learned that, and we have learned also from other countries a lot from other countries, which were not available say 25 years ago. So there are two sources of information or sources that we can go to, like dealing with COVID. COVID itself, when they really found the way that that inoculation that will help, it worked, and people. Then the outcome was quite different from people who are thinking that it can get worse, it it improved. So nobody is talking about COVID anyway. Dhananath Fernando 13:06 Yeah, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 13:06 yeah, Dhananath Fernando 13:08 correct. So, Prajapati, we have discussed kind of all 12 chapters, but I would like to know your final thoughts. Like throughout this book, you have gone through minor details of the process of globalisation and about Sri Lanka. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 13:22 Yeah, Dhananath Fernando 13:23 how are there any stark learnings that you would like to bring out, or like how that process changed you, or like your perspectives, or anything that really thought you know triggered you to think twice on the process that Sri Lanka had come through, or like as someone who had seen from the central bank, from you know travelling around the world in following many economies in Africa, in Latin America, in Asia, developed countries. How do you? I mean, what is your reflection about the book as an outsider? Imagine if if it wasn't authored by you, but let's not go to the detail. But like the content of like the story of Sri Lanka's globalisation, how do you see that with all your experience putting together? Yeah, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 14:10 actually, the story is a very good story. Dhananath Fernando 14:12 Right. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 14:13 We are here. We are talking. We are having higher living standard than before. If you say 25 years ago, we we we know how to deal with shocks now. Early we had we you we didn't have very much understanding, which now we have. And the economics that are being taught is also quite different from what would have been in in the past. Dhananath Fernando 14:39 All right, thank you very much, Dr. Rajapatiranath, for joining our conversation, and that wraps up our this series on discussing about the policy challenges of globalisation in Sri Lanka. That's a book authored by Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana, and it's a book about Sri Lanka very importantly, and it's a book about globalisation. And you probably. Able to get the gist of what is in each chapter, and it is available on YouTube as a playlist, so you can go through all 12 chapters and probably when you have time read the book and get the understanding of what has happened to Sri Lanka. With that, also we would like to remind you if you haven't become an Advocata insider yet, I think this is the time to consider that we are trying to build a community who supports reforms. Because even in this book, what we discussed was the policy reforms are needed if we want to bring. I mean, globalization-friendly policies has to be brought in. Yeah. Otherwise, it would be very difficult for us to improve living standards and as a country to move forward. So, of course, when you are an Advocata insider, you get exclusive access for a lot of other information, including exchange rate, interest rates, vehicle markets, so on and so forth. But it is very important that you understand that it's more than the exclusive content; it's a support provided for policy reforms. So please become an advocacy. And at the same time, you can subscribe us, follow us on all social media platforms. We are even available on TikTok, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook. You can find us on any medium. At the same time, this is our English channel. We are also available in Singhale as Advocata Plus, and in Tamil, we are available as Advocata Kural. Thank you very much, Dr. Ajava. Thank you, and we'll see you again with a similar series. Transcribed by https://otter.ai