charindra chandrasena 00:04 Hi Dana. Dhananath Fernando 00:05 Hi Jaree. Speaker 1 00:06 Hi, mr. Sandra Sinha. You must be very pleased with yourself, no? Yes, yes. You look like the Cheshire Cat. People, people listening won't know the reason. Yeah, they won't know the reason that happened, yeah. Something that happened between Colombo and Kandy Colombo and Candy charindra chandrasena 00:25 over the weekend. Over the weekend, I think I think they'll figure it out. They'll figure it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then it's nationally important event. But yeah, so getting on to other nationally Important events yesterday. There was the launch of this nationalised QR or QR code payment system. Did you did you guys catch any of that event, or at least the speeches? Speaker 1 00:56 The speeches and all the writing catch. But I did read through some of the. I think there were some articles that were there, some media stuff. So I kind of read through that. So did you see? Dhananath Fernando 01:06 Yeah, I saw the I saw the news story. I think which is a very important initiative moving to the QR system, which was long due. charindra chandrasena 01:13 Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 01:14 I think the initiate. I mean the initiation to allow transactions below 5000 without a fee, I think, is the right thing to do because otherwise you really cannot get people into the system. So, which is which is which is good. But I think there's lot to be done and a long way to go. But it's a good start in terms of the the initiation, and now the next step is to get the vendors and everybody to the system. Then that's how. Yeah, because right charindra chandrasena 01:46 now with card payments, for example, vendors always say, "We don't accept cards because there's a surcharge from the banking system. So I think that's what they are trying to address, no? With this 5000, Dhananath Fernando 02:04 absolutely. charindra chandrasena 02:04 Yeah, is there is there forfeited you know revenue to the government through this? Dhananath Fernando 02:15 That I am not very sure, Shari. But basically, on those transactions, that's not what we expect because these payments, like the transaction cost and the surcharge, is mainly the profits for the banks. Banks, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with getting a profit, but it has to be reasonable and competitive. No, you really cannot. We understand there'll be a transaction cost, but I think 2.5 percent and all that is a little too much, and I think when I spoke to some of the members who were initially in the committee, they also said because there's like a, if I remember right, there was a it's a joint venture between the banks and the central banks. This is charindra chandrasena 02:55 on on the Lanka pay langka pay yes system system Dhananath Fernando 02:58 correct. So so as a result, they fell even on the golf pay. The transaction costs were very high, so you have to bring it down and make it competitive. So I think in that front, it's a it's a right move. But I think still the transaction cost is quite high because what India did pretty much the same thing. They also released the government Speaker 1 03:17 absorbed the government Dhananath Fernando 03:19 absorbed and then got many people. That's why people say like even the biggers and everyone just now uses a QR code to do transactions. charindra chandrasena 03:27 Yeah, because but that demonetization effort in India was a bit messy, right? Dhananath Fernando 03:33 Yeah. Initially, Modi government like they suspended or like they banned some of the notes, and then there was a. It was quite messy at the beginning, but I think they were they caught it. They caught up again with the QR code and digitization afterwards. That's how they broadly managed, but because the demonetization overnight is not recommended because of the inconvenience caused of the poorest of the poor. But they caught up lately with the QR code system, with Aadhaar and everything merged together. So I think that's something that we need to move on. I think with the government's new digitization plan, they are considering. I think it's called. I think if I remember it, a digital lock, like the NIC driving licences and your birth certificate, everything in like a digital lock that you can use it. So it's easier for when you're taking the passport and all that. It's easier. For an example, the best example is most of our driving licences may have a chip, but none of the. I mean, cops have a cheap reader. charindra chandrasena 04:36 Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 04:37 So we have wasted lot of our money and time on like bringing sort of unnecessary, I mean some are necessary but without really having the infrastructure. Some are like unnecessary spending a lot of money. So I think it's important that we bring everything together. So with your digital NIC or like you know your your your Aadhar in the. In the Indian terms, when you have your digital registry number, now you can access because I think the authentication. I think Sanjeevarna many many months ago, I think he had done a nice article or a video like how you basically authenticate because for you to the the need is to authentic. You are you, right? So there are few few ways that you do it. Either you keep like a password, so then you authenticify. Okay, only you knows it, and you use it. But whatever, if someone knows it or get to know about it, the other one is like you have like a identity identity card, like authenticifying certifying someone saying it's you. But the real matter is like you really have a fingerprint or iris or something that it automatically authentic. It's you is you, and then everything else opens up. So I think that's where we are slowly moving. It's a long journey, but it's yeah. Speaker 1 05:50 And I think some other if you go through some other banking apps also that you have it on your phone. I mean the identification you can either get facial recognition or either the thumbprint is there. Now the particular banking app that I use basically has a provision for the thumbprint, right? So you go through the thumbprint and basically then the identification. The problem is if someone that is not authorised, no, the person who is not you using it, no. So if you eliminate that through technology and what is available, that is gone. Second critical thing is in India what they did that that the transactional cost, which is very high, they absorb it because they know after a while, when it gets to a particular tipping point, what happens is the transactional cost comes down dramatically. Then the government doesn't have to subsidise it; it'll run on its own. The initial transaction costs will be high per transaction, but you need to hit that critical point. Hit the critical point. I mean, it depends on the economy and it depends on the number of users. So from country to country, it will differ. It will differ. But in India, I can't exactly remember how much. But it came to that level. Then the transaction cost dramatically comes down, right? And then it's it's good enough to go on its own. It comes down because of the level of, I mean, adoption. Adoption. So more people using it. So it's like this. There are two paths. One is more people signing up, right? Second is even though some people sign up, they don't use it. So it has to be sign up plus usage. So when you put both, put together, then you hit the critical mass. When you hit the critical mass, the transactional value per transaction comes down dramatically. Then it becomes viable on its own. So I think that's where the government is pushing. One thing is you clear out the black economy. I mean, everyone knows Sri Lanka. There is a significant black economy that runs, and black economy is lubricated by cash, right? And if, for example, if you go to buy, let's say, to a hardware store, right? You can pay sometimes with a card, but then they will say either they will say there's a 3% add-on surcharge, that's a transactional value, or they will say sir the cash discount is not there. So that is also it's it's the same thing, no? So the reason is because there is a I wouldn't say black, I would say there's a huge grey economy. Yeah. So that grey economy is lubricated by cash. So I think the government is also looking to basically reduce that and bring the grey economy into the formal economy or the white economy, or reduce the aggressor. So when when charindra chandrasena 08:07 that happens, is there going to actually our is our GDP actually more than it is currently? If you really factor in the formal economy, is what is what we know as the 100 100 billion dollar economy, right? If you bring the informal sector into it, I feel like the economy is actually bigger. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 08:33 So basically, sorry, GDP ultimately is you have a point. It's ultimately like real goods and services that we produce. It's the coconut, the rice, and shipping, and everything that was done together. So, if there's if there's something that hasn't been captured, it when it comes to the formal, I mean, capturing system, of course, it will indicate. For an example, if someone is underreporting, for an example, let's say the number of coconuts that they produce, and if they do it on a cash basis or something, and then it must be captured. But I'm not very sure about like exactly. I mean, there's a there are a lot of mathematical models that the census and statistics department uses, and also they do some primary surveys as well. And the sampling and sampling. So so some of it may capture definitely, and also I think the for our audience, the important factor is that the on the taxation, because the more that you move into the digitization, it's automatically captured everywhere in the banking system. So charindra chandrasena 09:32 isn't isn't that part of the resistance, Dana? It is Dhananath Fernando 09:34 one of the resistance, but definitely it is. It is one a lot of people don't charindra chandrasena 09:39 want to Dhananath Fernando 09:40 exactly, and there's now new e-invoicing system also being pushed by the Ministry of Finance. So all these are going to get captured, and so your SSCL to VAT, so everything is slowly coming to you know amalgamating it to each other. It's easy to trace at the Indian Revenue Departments. So it's part of like the tax administration or like tax efficiency, administrative efficiency initiatives. So I mean, generally our view is okay. Of course, you have to have a better administrative system, but you have to keep the tax rates competitive. That's the most important thing, and you have to fit to the principles. Of course, this QR code and digitization helps to achieve that because you're you know you're you're making it convenient and you're making the cost of a transaction lesser and lesser and as a result entrepreneurship and except payments pay can be done easily so obviously so so I think that's that's where we need to move, but it has to have a broader appeal and an approach because the success of the programme will determine based on how many people really will join and you know how many transactions being done on the QR system. That's where I think the the real challenge charindra chandrasena 10:58 is. Yeah, just briefly, or maybe not even briefly. What are your thoughts on this digital economy drive that we are on right now in terms of the government's performance so far? Do you think we are on the right track? Are we going at the right speed? Do we have the right policies? Dhananath Fernando 11:17 Yeah, I think we are a little slow, to be honest. But I think at least I feel something is happening. I am my I mean express my conflict. I am also part of the one of the committees on this digitization, mainly the public engagement, not on the technical side. But I feel it's a little I mean it's moving. But I think there is a capacity challenge internal inside the government, because this requires a lot of regulations to be drafted, things to move on, and the government really do not have the capacity to do it. I think you have Dr. Hans at the top, but you need support staff to really move the needle. So I think there's a there's a there's a challenge there, but I think it's moving. Is that challenge charindra chandrasena 12:01 being addressed? Dhananath Fernando 12:02 I mean, I think that attempting it in multiple ways. But the truth is, I think finding the right people is also difficult with the salary scales and all that that is being offered at the government service. So how it generally getting done is with the support of the World Bank and other multilateral agencies, and as a part of like overall improving the efficiency because that also connected to the IMF tax. I mean you know our revenue targets and all that because that's where you capture the revenue. So it's challenging, but I think it's moving at least at slow pace in the right direction. Is my my evaluation? charindra chandrasena 12:41 Yeah, you want to add to that? Speaker 1 12:44 Yeah, so definitely, just to I think I think Dana covered most of it. I think the only thing to add is basically just just charindra chandrasena 12:51 on the technical side. Do we have a problem in terms of the technology, the infrastructure? Speaker 1 12:56 QR is relatively. I mean, if you have a small no, I mean I'm I'm saying in terms of digital economy as a whole. No, digital economy we still have a long way to go because one thing is you have to understand the digital economy. The biggest component in this country is the government. Government still runs on a file system, right? So one thing you can do is you can reduce the file system. For example, to get some approval to pay something and all that, you need to go meet a lot of people, spend the whole day there, waste your time and come. If you make it digital, then it's so much easier. Yeah. Right now, for example, so that's charindra chandrasena 13:27 that's a fantastic point because why should the government? I mean, why can't the government lead by example when they are trying to implement something? And you know, there's a lot of. I mean, trickle down to the. I'm going to play Speaker 1 13:39 the devil's advocate on this. So there are two sides of the story. One side is the government employees. Who's the bigger? Who's the largest employee in the country? The government, right? So what's going to happen? The more you, the more digital you become, the more leaner you become. The more and leaner you become, the less people you need. We have 1.4 million or 5 million government servants. Dhananath Fernando 13:59 1. between 1.3 million. Yeah, about one. Yeah, Speaker 1 14:01 it has come down a little bit now. 1.3 million government servants there. So if you just do the simple maths, that's a significant amount of the working population. So we all know, we all have experiences how well the government government service works, right? In a very dark humour, but the thing is, what's going to happen to them? Because we have this system of where you know everyone wants to get, especially the graduates who come out, especially from the provinces, they want to get into government service because one thing is there are a lot of advantages in that. One thing is the pension. That's the main. That's the main. That's a. That's one of the main carrots, right? So, if you go on that premise, if you go on a full digitization, what's going to happen to them? That's a serious question to ask. So I think you need to plan this out, and in such a way that the government also reduces. It's recruitment, right? And the other problem is we have always had this political culture. No, I'm not referring to any one single party. Every party stuffs their own people into government service. It happened everywhere. I mean, if Aman says no, everyone knows that. So this government stuffing of people, your supporters into state jobs has to stop at some point, or at least they had to bring legislature that to stop that. Or any minister who comes, he will see in his department. But it's happening less and less charindra chandrasena 15:30 over the not just this government, but I mean since the crisis, it is happening less and less. So that's the thing. Speaker 1 15:35 So we had to go through a horrendous crisis to get there. Of course, but still, 1.3 million is still there, right? So what do we do? So the thing is that you need to work out a plan where the digitization system goes ahead, right? And where those employees who are there stay, you have to give them option either you can take a VRS, or you have to give them option saying listen you can be either retrained or reschool for something else, so that has to go concurrently. Oh, what's going to happen is there is going to be some some level of sabotage happening. charindra chandrasena 16:09 Yep, yep. I want to also move into the other big story of the week. And Dana, I know you have to leave halfway, so I'll start with you on this, and you can give Riyadh. I'm going to come to you for the the industry perspective on this. But from a macro point of view, we are talking about the 13 point 2 billion fraud that has taken place at NDB. Now, before we get into the nitty-gritties of it, what is the? Is there a national level impact of from something like this? Because the banking sector is very, you know, nationally sensitive. Dhananath Fernando 16:55 Yeah. So there can be because for I mean that's why I think the central bank issued a statement, so as the bank, because if the depositors feel that their money being stolen, basically they will go and try to withdraw money, and that will have a massive impact on the bank. And generally, when it could charindra chandrasena 17:13 create a bank run, no, it could Dhananath Fernando 17:15 create a bank run, and it will also significantly undermine the trustworthiness of the banking system because when one when when you the natural question that comes to your mind is okay this happened in one bank and how can I assure that the other banks are safe and secure? That charindra chandrasena 17:32 is not just another bank right. It's not one of the lower tier banks. It's one of the top tier banks. I think I Speaker 1 17:40 think the asset base is about 900, almost a trillion. About a trillion rupees. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 17:44 So Speaker 1 17:45 so it's not small. It's not Dhananath Fernando 17:46 small, and yeah. So and generally, while it is claimed that it is not depositors' money being impacted, the truth is, banks, of course, they have their profits, of course, which which can be. I mean, this can be covered, but the truth is, banks only circulate the money to the depositors, and that's why it's a restricted industry. Not that anyone can go and open a bank, and that's why the Advoca Mudalaris and all those transactions are not considered. I mean, considered illegal. So I think there's even their charindra chandrasena 18:15 profits flow from the deposits. Exactly, their profits flow from Dhananath Fernando 18:18 the deposits. So of course, since it's one bank, the central bank can provide liquidity and like restrict it to an extent. But I think overall questions has I mean has to be raised on the banking supervision front, on the regulatory framework. Like we also don't know the details yet, but how things have happened at such scale and from the little that we know, this is not like a one-off incident. This has been happening for this has charindra chandrasena 18:47 been happening for several years. Several years, Speaker 1 18:49 2023. So it raises the Dhananath Fernando 18:51 question: Given it's a public listed company, what has been the internal audits being done? What has been the external auditors have done? And how really did they miss it, so I think probably if there was a proper forensic audit, everyone who was involved will have to bear the responsibility, and they will all be kind of responsible in terms of national level answering your question, Chari. Yes, it will have if things escalate and if the if the if the trustworthy factor being questioned by the by the people, but I think also the bank supervision front of the central bank will also be questioned. So that's the macro level. What charindra chandrasena 19:33 can what can the central bank do to make sure that doesn't happen? Dhananath Fernando 19:37 Yeah. So how do charindra chandrasena 19:38 you inspire confidence again? Correct. So they have done Dhananath Fernando 19:41 the initial steps of like issuing statements, and it's a more PR thing at the moment. But then, doing the proper investigations and releasing the reports out, and really finding out what are the reasons, and then changing the regu. I mean, if there's a regulatory challenge or if there's a loophole in the system, how this has happened, and then address that is what is needs to be done, and. Address it in a very, I mean, in a public manner that identifying what has happened. Exactly, disclose fully what has happened, and then address the remedy election. I really don't know what has happened, like how this fraud has taken place, which is yet to be known. I'm sure it will it will come out soon. So let's see. But overall, at the moment, there is no impact. Impact, but it can happen if similar kind of things happening in the other banks also. Then it would be a problem. charindra chandrasena 20:31 Right. All right. I know you have to go. So we will release. I Dhananath Fernando 20:35 think Riyadh has a better release. Yeah. So I'm going to turn to Riyadh. Absolutely. But charindra chandrasena 20:39 all right. Cheers. Then there were two. Yeah. Yeah. So saying on NDB, they put out a disclosure that there was a fraud amounting to something like 350 million. Correct. If I'm not yeah exactly, that was that was 380 million. Yeah, Speaker 1 21:02 that was the first stock exchange filing. Yes. Normally, if there's any any information that has any information that has an impact on the share price, they have to for any of the listed companies, they have to make a statement. So that was their first statement. charindra chandrasena 21:16 Yeah, but then after that, they made another statement, another disclosure. These are called corporate disclosures, and they are published on the CSE stock exchange website. Also, that Speaker 1 21:30 the fraud amounted to 13 billion plus. Yeah. So just to go through the numbers, Chari, I'll just say this is bigger than the VET scam. This is bigger than the bond scam, which I think it was 10 billion. This I think is bigger than the sugar scam. I think this is bigger than most of the scams that we know, right? This is massive. This 13.5. The question that for me is he has been doing this from 2023. How did he do this for this long? So that means well. When we say he, we don't. We don't know. Sorry, we don't know. It's a he or a she. We don't know. I think it's a they, right? So we don't know. By the way, actually, I charindra chandrasena 22:09 think I think that their disclosure also has it that it was done by a few employees. Few employees. So it's plural for sure. It's plural for sure. But we don't know the gender exactly. You can't Speaker 1 22:18 pull off something. You can't pull off a heist like this, this big, on your own. You can't be the you can't be the lone wolf. So obviously there had been a team, and and I think the statement backs that. So the question is, they have been doing this for the last from 2023, big question mark. So that means there are few people that we need to question on on the regul on supervision. One thing is you have the internal controls of the bank, right? Right. The internal controls have not done their job clearly. Then you have the external control with the central bank. So central bank has a very specific department called the Department of Yeah. Before we before we charindra chandrasena 22:56 before we go there, just for people who may not be aware, what are the internal controls? How many levels are there? Speaker 1 23:03 So I'm not a banker, and by the way, some of the things I'm saying because we we also we are also not 100% sure what has happened. I don't think I won't be surprised if another press release comes and gives us another number. I don't know because we don't know because currently they they I think a forensic audit should be going, and then I think the real story. I think about a week or so will probably come out. So whatever I'm saying is also yeah. No, no, no. You have to charindra chandrasena 23:26 go into detail on it, but just so normally you yeah. So Speaker 1 23:29 you have the internal auditor. So you get the line. You have corporate finance. Then you have the internal auditor, right? And then you have the CIO because these are these are online transaction system, right? So, so those are the so charindra chandrasena 23:41 all of those levels Speaker 1 23:43 levels and charindra chandrasena 23:43 and you're taking high level levels high level and there could be you know more levels at the yeah level Speaker 1 23:49 and then from there you go down charindra chandrasena 23:51 yeah Speaker 1 23:52 and you get and you get the guy who basically basically you get the team that basically has to balance the accounts because there are a lot of billions of rupees or transactions go end of the day, the accounts have to be balanced because it has to be zero, right? So, so there one one place where they normally park the money is the there's an account called the suspension account, right? Because there are transactions. Sometimes you get know that where the transaction goes through says it's not completed yet. So that means sometimes you might have probably got a bank account number wrong, right? Or maybe you got a name wrong. Sometimes it goes to suspension and then it settles. So we don't know exactly where it has taken. We don't know if it has gone through some other department or if it was completely IT, right? But these guys have been doing this for a while, which is clear from the from the release. Then charindra chandrasena 24:37 from the regulator's side, central bank side. So Speaker 1 24:39 central bank, there's one where the central bank you get bank supervision where they come and check all the nooks and crannies of the bank balance sheet and the transactions and all that. I mean they do they have various methods and I think systems charindra chandrasena 24:53 that must be conducted at least once a year, right or more than no. Speaker 1 24:57 I think it's conducted multiple times. Yeah. I think normally banks they normally put their accounts out every quarter, like any public listed company. Yeah, and banks are mandated do by law to put their accounts out. So I mean they have to publish it in the paper and all that. So the thing is definitely there is central bank supervision will be there. So these guy, these people, set of people have actually bypassed that also, right? That is one. Then there's a third layer. Third layer is actually the accounting firm. So normally you have an international accounting firm. Normally auditing. It can be. I don't tell names. Yeah, yeah. Right. But you have the big charindra chandrasena 25:30 four. Yeah, you have the big four. It would most likely be one of the big. Yeah, it's one of Speaker 1 25:35 it's one from the big four. I mean, I mean, right. So the thing is, it has surpassed them also. So Speaker 2 25:39 then it Speaker 1 25:40 becomes a big question on how did this happen? Like you can't go through multiple layers, so that means there is there are problems on compliance. Definitely, there's a massive oversight on compliance because it has gone through three layers of nets, right? So or filtering systems. So that part, I think, especially now we are looking at the digital economy. We are planning to go to QR and all that to make sure that things like don't happen like this in the future. We have to make sure that we have to basically make sure that it's the you know those those filtering systems are there, right? And the other one is you need to use the best-in-class practices from the world, right? Now, for example, very unfortunately, normally if you take compliance and all that, the foreign banks that are operating because I deal with one. Generally, I'll give you a small example. I mean, for the big match, few guys told me to buy because some guys are overseas. They told me to buy the tickets, so I got a lot of money suddenly coming in saying buy the tickets and all. And this guy said, and you know they sent a screenshot. I send the money and all. Next day I got a I get a call from the bank. This is a foreign bank. They ask you know you have some unusual transactions that have come. Can you just mind telling what it is you? So I said this is the big match. Ah, right, right. I'm pretty sure they record it. I said no for the big match. We just, I just took the collection in because I had to go and buy the tickets. So ah, right. Okay, we just found it clear. So that means there is KYC and compliance. So because if you take a foreign bank, they have the compliance of that the home country and the local. So that means they run a very tight system. Plus they have the best IT systems in the world, right? So it's pretty good. So, charindra chandrasena 27:26 but are you saying the local banks don't have that? No, Speaker 1 27:29 no, no. I'm not saying the local banks don't have. But the thing is, when I, I mean, I have another friend who operates a normal, normal this thing, local bank, and he said when the money comes and all that, I never get calls like that because I actually we are in this discussion. I said you know I mean I was actually complaining saying that this some lady called I didn't know some unusual number and asked and all that I was middle of something, she kind of ticked me off also right this thing and all that. But there is a reason because they have this protocol through this thing, so I am not pointing fingers at anyone, but then again, you have to point fingers also because it has gone through three layers. Yeah, yeah. So I think the central bank, who is in charge of the whole auditing process, sorry, the whole supervision and the regulatory process, they have to bank supervision. They have to up their game. If something like this has happened, right? It has also been under their watch too, so I think that is something because always what happens is everyone points a finger at the bank and this thing. You point the finger at the regulator also because this is this has been a the regulator also has dropped the ball. I mean, if it was a one-off transaction, yes, you can say, but if you say suddenly you know this is not a one-off transaction, this has been happening for a while, right? So that means at that level also there is issue. I mean, the red flags haven't come, or maybe the internal protocols. There has definitely been a problem with internal protocols. charindra chandrasena 28:50 That's the thing. Moving beyond how it happened, the same question I asked Dana, but in a more industry point of view, what kind of impact would this have on the banking sector in terms of like depositor confidence? Yes, but also in terms of generally industrial performance. Speaker 1 29:10 I think the depositors are not hit by this, so I don't think any depositor who's out there has to take the has to worry about this because NDBs, the bank is the balance sheet is big enough, they they don't have liquidity issues and all that, and plus the central bank has also said they have no problem like that. I think the real people who are going to get hit hit are the shareholders because definitely the share price is going to come down, profitability is going to tank. That means dividends and all are not going to come for a while, and the employees, that means bonuses will be cut. They are taken or hit no bonuses will be cut, maybe promotional whatever money that you normally get after working for year year of good service, those people are going to get impacted badly. So depositors, I don't think I don't see any issue there. The issue is going to be definitely the shareholders and the employees, the other people. But other than that, bank will run as it is. Only thing is in future to make sure that this kind of thing doesn't happen with another bank also because we have so many banks operating. So I think the central bank it's up to because central bank, central bank has all powers when it comes to the banking system in Sri Lanka. Like even if you're appointing a very senior guy, like a senior person into the bank, you need to get a pull from the central bank. There's something called fit and proper. They have to get cleared, because I can tell you there was a when the there was we had a lot of scams and these things. Now when the hedging scam happened, one a senior banker who was there, he was basically told by central bank that he has to be that they have to get rid of him, right? Even if he is right or wrong, I don't. I'm not saying. So ultimately, okay. Ultimately, he actually left. He actually vacated his position, and I think he found another employment overseas. But that is central bank, right? So central bank, I think, has to basically make sure the regulatory system that they use the best-in practices and the internal protocols are done properly. The red flags come out properly. If they think that they are behind this thing, get experience from foreign central banks. Get experience from other people. Where this thing? But this is a this is this has been this because this is the the problem I see in this. If it was a one-off thing, yes, someone did a quick number and all that. And okay, this is not a one-off thing. This has been operating. And the other question is, how did these guys get caught after so many years? I mean, 2023, like roughly give or take, it's right between two three years. Yeah, two three years, right? So how did they get caught? How did that happen? So I think you need to bring all that into together, and you need to work out a regulatory system, because that is something I think you really need to look, and that complete the responsibility lies. I won't say completely. That's I think the wrong term. Most of it lies with the with the with the regulator because regulator only sets the regulator only sets the goalpost. charindra chandrasena 31:56 Yeah, I agree because I think they can try to blame purely the bank, but at the end of the day, supervision and enforcement is one of their main mandates. Speaker 1 32:09 Exactly. charindra chandrasena 32:09 So I don't think it can be completely. You know, they can wash their hands off it. Exactly. I mean, I Speaker 1 32:14 mean, I mean, I mean, inside the people of the bank, because I'm talking about the management, big problem. I mean, this has happened. It's their internal. They have not followed. But the people who actually follow up with the bank to check if they are doing the internal protocol is the is the regulator, bank's operation. So that means they have also not done their part. So I think this is a multi this thing, and and I think you need to look at this in a more holistic way and not going through a you know kaleidoscope. We need to check and see where the shortfalls are, and those shortfalls have to be because what's going to happen is definitely a forensic team would come down probably from OZs, maybe Singapore, Hong Kong, maybe from somewhere they will come, they will do a thing, and they will give their recommendations and all. I think central bank needs to look at that, maybe regulate a new system and begin to make sure that these kind of things don't happen in the future, because more and more, sorry, government wants cash transactions to reduce. More and more, you want electronic transactions to go. So, if electronic transactions are going to improve, you need to make sure the protocols are there. So, no fraud in an activity takes place. charindra chandrasena 33:16 Absolutely, absolutely. We hope we get some more clarity on this by by our next show. The next show is actually so we are not for audience. We are not recording next week due to the Sinhala and Tamil Nivea Alutauru Patandu. We will come back the week after, and we'll see you at that point. But thank you, Lia. Do you have a message for the? Speaker 1 33:48 I mean, I mean, Dana is the person who tells India, so you have to you have to rise to the location today. I have to improvise. So thing is, become an Advocata subscriber. Becoming Advocata substitute, what happens is it allows us to do work like this freely without any pressure from outside, and you help us basically bring bring information like this out. Okay, I think I'm going to stop there. I don't have the provost of Dana. So charindra chandrasena 34:20 okay, so as as we said, we are going to see you in two weeks. We wish you all prosperous, happy Sinhala and Tamil Navier. Thank you, Riyadh, as well. Yes. So we'll regather. We'll gather again in two weeks. Speaker 1 34:41 All right. charindra chandrasena 34:42 Cheers. Cheers. Transcribed by https://otter.ai