charindra chandrasena 00:05 Hi Adana. Dhananath Fernando 00:06 Hi Chari. charindra chandrasena 00:07 Hi Riyadh. Hi Speaker 1 00:08 Chari. charindra chandrasena 00:10 I have before we start just two numbers to remind you. Yes. 72 and 20. Right. Speaker 1 00:19 So it's seen, but still there's an 83 and two zeros also after that. charindra chandrasena 00:24 We are not we are not talking about ancient history. No, we are living in the present, right? And I I don't want to bring schools into this too much, but it's it's too good for me not to in this instance, right? So 70 to 20, legendary, right? As a royalist, it was so bad that you're actually sick today, right? So I can understand, right? So having having said that, and because you have nothing to say in return, Speaker 1 00:54 83 double zero. charindra chandrasena 00:56 Ancient history, ancient history. That is more than 20 years ago. Okay, in 2002. Yeah, Dhananath Fernando 01:04 but I hope, like like the as I've been saying that the the all the school issues being sorted by the demography one day, these issues will also be sorted by demography or like some. charindra chandrasena 01:17 It will be sorted by demography for sure. We are the only ones dragging it on, but we have quite quite a bit to talk about. But but particularly in terms of the economy, there was especially a ranking that came that actually caught my eye. Okay. The International, sorry, Institute of International Finance has ranked Sri Lanka the fourth fastest growing emerging market economy in terms of improvements in investor confidence and debt transparency, both go hand in hand. Okay, so I just wanted to look into this and and dwell on this a little bit because debt transparency, guys, is not something that Sri Lanka is particularly known for investor friendliness is also not something Sri Lanka is known for. Just initially tell me, does it surprise you this ranking? So to give context, the only countries ahead of us are Vietnam, Belize, and Mozambique, so we are number four. Of course, this is emerging market and developing. Not the developing the Dhananath Fernando 02:47 emerging markets. Speaker 1 02:48 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 02:48 So, does it surprise you? Dhananath Fernando 02:52 I mean, it's in a way surprising because when you, I think people need to decode what this really means. When I think the what the the the index captures is the investments in the capital markets mainly because when you say investments it can also be foreign direct investments surprises in the sense I think there have been also improvements over the past few years so in a way it doesn't surprise but also it is good to know that we are not bad as we think when it comes to the emerging markets category. Of course, there's a lot to be improved. So, in terms of the transparency, I think some reforms it seems it's working, and the investors are looking at it more positively. But it was in a way surprising because I actually, to be honest, did not expect us to be like on the top four in the even in the emerging market category, but it is good to know that some of the reforms that we have been as Advocata advocating and as a country are quite doing well. charindra chandrasena 03:53 What is the what is the what do you think is the connection between investor friendliness and debt transparency? Why do they go hand in hand? Because this is a report, correct? Which measures both, correct? But obviously, debt transparency as a isolated concept doesn't mean anything. No, the result is investor friendliness. Yeah. So how does that feed into this? Speaker 1 04:17 So there are. So normally the financial system is interconnected, and what happens is like when you are having where your rankings go up in one thing has an impact on the other. One thing is when you do an investment, but what you do is you basically do the risk premiums. So so with this, what happens is Sri Lanka's investment grade and plus the risk premium will come down. So when the risk premium comes down, what happens is you know things the cost of finance comes down, right? Then for invest, what you call for investors the risk of investing. I mean, so normally risk can be categorised in so many ways, right? So this one particular category of on risk is going to have. Positive impact on on the country, so that's how the whole thing is connected with one thing is the cost of finance, other one is the investment being country being more investor friendly, because one when when see everyone when we say investor friendly is the everyone they only look at one category, right? It's not like that. So what happens is like when anyone comes to invest, what they do is they they first what they do is they do the they do a risk profile, right? And they work out the premium, saying that okay, if I'm coming into this country, sorry about that. When I come into this country, the risk is let's say risk is X, right? That means I need a return of, for example, this much a return of Y to make it feasible, right? So the the the less the risk goes down, what happens is then the return also what they're looking at that super the super return what they're looking at is also coming down, right? So then, what happens is it becomes more investor friendly because the reason is then there are more people who will look at this. So that is like by take on the whole thing. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 06:11 So adding into what Riyadh said, Chari. So risk premium can be multiple things. It can be the exchange rate risk. It can be the inflation risk. It can be the political risk. So basically, let's say the government is issuing a bond for an example. So we are saying, okay, we are issuing a bond. Each bond is let's say $100 each, and if there's if the people if there's higher risk, people will buy this bond probably at about let's say 80 or 85 or 70, right? So that's the the margin from 75 to 100 because our face value of the bond is 100. But actually, the people who are willing to buy this bond only are willing to pay about $70. So what happens is they buy the dollar at 70, but they buy the bond at $70, but they get an interest in every six months, for $100, and at the maturity, when they come with that small note, whoever the issuing party is agreed to pay $100. So that's a zero Speaker 1 07:12 coupon. There's a Dhananath Fernando 07:13 zero coupons. So so that's so. But when the risk premiums are lower, means that the market doesn't see that there is a higher risk, and risk can be brought down when you're transparent because then you can see how much do we owe to whom, in what currency breakdown, and what's our spread, like what's the maturity cycle, and what's the cost of financing? Everything can be basically people can see who are investing. So then it's easier for them to make decisions. So as a result, your risk premium can be basically brought down. Even of course you may have other all sorts of risk, exchange rate risk, and other risk factors, inflation risk. But at least it's transparent. So you don't you don't have to cause for unambiguity because you know the details beforehand. So with that transparency, I think is our numbers have improved, and that's why I think this index have shown brought us up to the main info top four in the emerging markets category. Speaker 1 08:18 And the other one is the that it sends the right signals to the market, saying that you know one thing is you know the transparency. That means the government is you know they're being very transparent on what they do, right? And so in the capital markets, one thing markets hate is they don't they don't like question marks, right? Because that's why you know sometimes they say bad news is actually better than better charindra chandrasena 08:43 than uncertainty, uncertainty. You know, lack of predictability. Yeah, because Speaker 1 08:46 uncertainty you don't know where the flow is. Yeah, bad news you know where the flow is. Yeah, and you can account for that. You can account for that. So because of that, what happens is it sends the right signals to the market, right? And it sends right signals to the people who are looking to invest. Because now one thing you have to see is worldwide was a lot of calamity. You know, charindra chandrasena 09:03 the Speaker 1 09:03 Middle East is not what the Middle East that we know of. Maybe one year ago, this is not the Middle East we were looking at, right? It was taken as a safe haven, tax breaks, all that is there now. So because of that, what happens is you know there's a whole there's old saying no money never sleeps. So then in the future they'll be looking at emerging markets which are out of the conflict zone, so to speak, right? And because there is no, I mean, there is no one single conflict zone. You know, there is something happening in the Ukraine. Then suddenly, Ukraine has got involved in the Iranian war because in the Caspian Sea, Iranian vessel has been bombed or something by the Ukrainians, right? And then there's a little bit of tension going in the the charindra chandrasena 09:44 Turkey also. Yeah, Turkey Speaker 1 09:45 get involved. Then there's another issue in what he called the in the in the Pacific, the Chinese Sea. You know that side. You know there's little bit of other activities going on. So, so when we look at that, the global the investment portfolio, they they look. Diversify their risk from there. So when a news like this comes, it sends all the proper you know positive to world markets. Okay, these countries now they are on the right track, right? So now it's up to the people the the people who are in charge of certain things to basically leverage on that, and you know to make sure the information and the good messages and all go out, where people will look at investing in Sri Lanka in a more positive matter. But Dhananath Fernando 10:28 I think the important thing is this is not about the foreign direct investment. I mean, there's a part of it. There's a part of it. Yeah, but this is this is this is charindra chandrasena 10:35 mainly about debt. I mean, secure government securities, the debt market. Yeah, the debt market and how those capital flows can be attracted here. Exactly. Yeah. Now we have a couple of things to factor in here. There is likely to be a rate hike in the Federal Reserve this year, according to the projections. Yes. As soon as that happens, we become a less attractive destination. So that capital flight, Speaker 1 11:08 not only Sri Lanka, every country, of course, yes, charindra chandrasena 11:11 right. So that capital flight we have to plan for. Secondly, and this was mentioned By MP Harshad De Silva, the chair of the Committee on Public Finance, that the Public Debt Management Office, which has been the main debt management entity since late last year, it took over from central bank. So Harshad De Silva, Dr. Harsha De Silva is saying that there is a capacity issue. The Delhi FT has reported on this today as well. Is the PDM more? Just just give me your thoughts initially with this capital flight risk coming up, with our yields right now, the 10-year bond is having a yield of 12 and a half percent. Okay, Dana, you can correct me on that if I'm wrong. Okay, 12 and a half percent. So only a few countries in the list that I checked, only a few countries were above us, and that includes Russia and all of that. So we are actually not in a good position, not in a good wicket on that front. Our credit rating has not been upgraded. It is, it might be next year. All of that considered, tell me about the PDMOA. Sorry, the Public Debt Management Office. Does it is it equipped? Does it have the resources? Does it have the know-how to navigate this tricky period of a year or so? Dhananath Fernando 12:55 So, from what we see on the COPEF meetings and all that, Chari, we don't. I don't feel that there's enough capacity being built inside the PDMO because it was earlier managed by the central bank, and I think their salary scales are different. And we need to understand now to manage about a $30 billion debt, $30 billion debt, or something equivalent. You need people who also get paid reasonably well because these are very sensitive information, sensitive markets. You basically have to have CFA guys and experienced guys to do it. This is kind of the same operation, not the same. But if you recall, during the debt restructure in these Clifford Chance and Lazards, those were like the financial advisors and the financial advice. So this is more a financial advisor job at a global scale because you also it's not about also there's a part which is the local market, but it's more about the international market. So you have to have really skilled people and having KPIs because if they can bring the interest rates down like a quarter percentage, that will have a massive saving on the overall debt numbers, so you really have to have the really really capable people to run it. That also comes with high investment and better salary structure. charindra chandrasena 14:10 They are they are done. Elaborate and and Riyadh also, if you want, elaborate on why it was removed from the central bank. What was the logic behind that? Dhananath Fernando 14:19 Yeah. So the logic and what are the international best practices? Yeah, the logic was sorry. Now, how most of the countries, almost all countries, how they service debt is borrowing from Peter and paying Paul. charindra chandrasena 14:30 Yeah, Dhananath Fernando 14:31 right. So they are basically not saving money; they are just borrowing from someone else and settling it. So they are basically rolling over there. That's called rollover. So when you are rolling it over, you you are in a better position if you roll it over at a lower financing cost. For an example, you are settling down a loan which has taken at a higher interest rate by taking another loan which is at a lower interest rate. So over a period of time, you bring the interest rate down. But of course, interest rate is not a. Function of I mean interest rates as I mean it's all market determined. There can be so many factors. So when the central bank was managing the debt or the debt repayments, central bank is the one who also who is deciding on the interest rates. So when the central bank also is servicing debt or when they are also run the function of the debt servicing, central bank, what they do is when they want to service the debt and when they want to achieve kind of debt sustainability, they will artificially bring the interest rates down to manage the debt situation. But when you bring the interest rates down artificially, just because of looking at the debt situation, because you are in the same institute, then you run for a balance of payment crisis. Because when the interest rates brought down artificially, then people start spending more. People swipe more credit cards, and then it adds to the. Then you go for a another forex crisis. And when you have the forex crisis, then your it's a vicious cycle. Then it's of course when you don't have forex, then your exchange rate depreciates, and with exchange rate, you again interest your inflation goes up, and when your inflation goes up, you have to increase the interest rate. But you can't then when you increase the interest rates, your debt sustainability is also in jeopardy. So as a result, they have the the right thing to do is of course having a separate debt management office. So the central bank have their independence on managing the. They are mainly liable for inflation, so they are only looking at inflation and adjusting the interest rates accordingly. Of course, we have a view. There are different views. Some people think inflation target is too too high. Some people think yeah, that's a different topic. But however, central bank target is inflation. So they are just based on the inflation. They only adjust the interest rates, not only looking at the not not looking at the so charindra chandrasena 16:46 so the central bank essentially decides monetary policy without any consideration for debt sustainability. Correct in the current model and and the global best practices. But if somebody were to say, when you do it independently of that, say for example, there is growing demand, money. I mean, credit growth going above the level inflation. The central bank goes and raises policy rates. Okay, rate hike. The debt in in this scenario, if the debt is already at an unsustainable level, that just makes it more unsustainable. So, are you not creating another problem there by by divorcing these two? It Dhananath Fernando 17:35 is it is not because now you have the. Of course, there will be an implication when the interest rates goes up, when the on the on the debt situation because when you are rolling it over your debt your repayment and the servicing may be more expensive. So that's the role of the the public debt management office because now they can act independently for the interest rate. Of course, the central bank cannot also increase the interest rates too much because then it will also have an impact on the economic growth. But of course, now growth is also not their mandate. It's mainly the inflation. But then the inflation will come down further. Like when you have two very high interest rates, it will fall below their the debt. But but that my charindra chandrasena 18:18 point is that PDMO, the Debt Management Office, has no say in monetary policy anymore. Dhananath Fernando 18:24 Correct, charindra chandrasena 18:25 right? I mean, not anymore. I mean, they don't have a say. Yeah. charindra chandrasena 18:27 The central bank does not have to consider in any way debt sustainability in their monetary policy. Correct. So I'm asking, divorcing these two so absolutely, couldn't that lead to another issue of the sustainability getting worse and worse? Dhananath Fernando 18:46 I do not see it as a risk study because ultimately, even if you when you look when you weigh the pros and cons of having it together and divorcing it together, I feel the weightage on divorcing it together is quite higher because when you have it together, you always try to tend to bring the interest rates down artificially. So now you anyway, no central bank want to increase the interest rates too much. Like you know, there's always a market pressure because the moment that you increase interest rates, you know, beyond what is required without any consideration of other factors, it is it is definitely everybody knows, and the pressure from the markets will be there because no one really wants the high interest rates. But no one will say anything when you bring the interest rates down artificially. So that system is there, and of course the central bank also in terms of their interest rates target and their inflation target. It always a conversation, and there's a framework provided in the act itself to discuss with the Ministry of Finance. So actually, while it is divorced, these concerns may come because ultimately there has to be a conversation dialogue between the central bank and the Ministry of Finance. So and the PDMO is under the Ministry of Finance. So that concern. If the central bank brings like a very low, for an example, inflation target, which I think which is not which is a good thing, like low in the sense not extremely low, but at least at a reasonable, not like five, maybe about two or three. So then the the minister of finance always have the the the space to say that look, when you do that, if you how are you going to do it? If the prices, if you are going to increase interest rates, if you are trying to achieve it by increasing interest rate too much, then this will have an impact on the debt side. That can be brought in. So I think that has some merit in terms of having it as two separate independent entities. Now, Speaker 1 20:38 yeah, sorry. But don't forget you know our interest rates went up to 28% right because at that time that was the only measure that the central bank could take because at that time inflation was completely off the you know off the clock charindra chandrasena 20:51 yeah Speaker 1 20:52 currency depreciated almost 100% right so at that thing that that's only punitive action they can take so at that moment you have to take so it's the same thing here. If things get completely out of, because then what happens is monet stability is lost. charindra chandrasena 21:06 Yeah. Speaker 1 21:06 When monetary stability is lost, you can't no you can't price the economy. charindra chandrasena 21:09 Yeah. If you have runaway inflation, then I mean obviously no no not in Speaker 1 21:12 runaway inflation. Like the thing is end of the day, and any economy and any any economy, it has to be priced correctly. So the pricing is done on on interest charindra chandrasena 21:20 rate. Speaker 1 21:20 So if there is too much of there's too much of liquid in the market, which is driving prices up, the only way the central bank can make the correction is they have to bring the liquid back in back in. So to do that, you know there are couple of instruments. Interest rate is one plus they have some other instruments which they can use like in permitted management, so they have to do that and you know make sure that they mop up the they mop up the excess liquidity and and bring monetary stability into the economy because without monetary stability nothing is going to happen. Dhananath Fernando 21:53 As it was famously said, Speaker 1 21:54 yeah, Dhananath Fernando 21:55 stability is not everything, but without stability everything is nothing. Nothing. So without monetary stability, everything is nothing. Speaker 1 22:02 Nothing exactly. charindra chandrasena 22:03 Right now, speaking of debt, we we will probably have to float an ISP next year. Okay, that could be I don't know the amount maybe 1.5 1 billion. 1.5 billion. Dhananath Fernando 22:23 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 22:24 Yeah. So say 1.1 billion to 2 billion. Yeah. Now before that, we need to get our credit rating up. It's currently at triple C, right? Yeah. So we need to get that up. What do we need to do? Can we do anything to accelerate that process of of a rating credit rating improvement? Dhananath Fernando 22:50 Very briefly, before Riyadh comments, now this this report is not a rating upgrade. We need to completely understand that, but it helps to improve the credibility because these proposals are being referred by the investors, so it improves the credibility, but it won't upgrade the credit rating. Exactly, but it helps on the credit rating front. So the credit rating. Yeah, but it's an charindra chandrasena 23:11 it's an additional it's a supplementary. It's a supplementary rating. When people look at the graph of the the yield curves and the ratings, they are not going to see this report. Correct. They are just going to see the triple C. So, Speaker 1 23:22 so international bond, what do you call bond investors? Generally, they they don't go only with the rating, right? There are a lot of other things what they do. They look at transparency, they look at governance, a lot of things like that, right? And then only they make a call. So this is one of the things that will help, like what the Dana said. But the rating, of course, is a completely different game. Dhananath Fernando 23:41 So for us to improve rating, then it's the debt to GDP ratio. Speaker 1 23:45 Exactly. Dhananath Fernando 23:46 Then it's the debt to revenue, debt servicing to revenue ratio, economic growth, primary surplus. Those are the indicators that the rating agencies are looking at because when you only have a primary surplus, or when you have basically and you're bringing down the debt to debt to revenue ratio, Speaker 1 24:04 and other and other sorry that was butting another thing. But do you actually look at the stability of the currency? charindra chandrasena 24:10 Right. Speaker 1 24:10 Because that is something they look at. Because another day, the currency suddenly starts to lose value. That means debt sustainability becomes a problem. Right. So there are a lot of instruments, what they look for, so yeah, there are a lot. So so out of that, I would say yeah, the rating is for me. Rating is very big. Then the other one that I would actually look is actually the exchange rate, right? Because end of the day, the whatever bond, I know it's a it's a it's a foreign currency bond. It'll be a it'll be $1 bond. Yeah, but the dollar bond, end of the day, the revenue that is generated for the dollar bond is generated from the local currency. Yeah, of course. charindra chandrasena 24:48 Just before moving onto the exchange rate, because that that is more of a fluid thing that that we can fix. Yeah, you know, even a month or two before we we we, you know. Go into this ISP, but I want to focus on the rating. So you mentioned those five or six things that also the Dhananath Fernando 25:09 reserves. One thing also the reserves. Yes, right. charindra chandrasena 25:11 Now, based on where we are now, are we on track to trigger a rating upgrade next year. Dhananath Fernando 25:23 It's a tricky one, Chari. I think we have brought the debt to GDP ratios down. Reserves are kind of accumulating, but I'm not very sure whether we are at a. I mean, we have done things adequately because it's also some factors beyond our control also matters. For an example, if we have like high climate risk, if there's an unfortunate incident which affects the entire economy, so because they are rating credit rating agencies are not giving a higher rating, better rating, not because the government is only doing good or bad. Of course, if there are external shocks that they see that this economy is vulnerable, because it's a ranking about the vulnerability of the economy, like what extent it's a risk premium, no, so like the risk rating, no. So if even if something happens, like environment crisis or something, then of course your rating either it will go down. But in terms of charindra chandrasena 26:13 controllables, let's forget the uncontrollables. In terms of the controllables, Speaker 1 26:17 so the controllables. So one thing is now currently what they are doing is the fiscal side they are they on track because one thing we are I think after I don't know how many years like I think maybe a couple of decades I think we are running a budget surplus yeah right so those are very positive things yeah which means you know the the what do you call the it's going to have impact on the debt to GDP and plus it's going to have impact on for example the reserves what they are going to build also because you know because industry if the government is running a this thing then they can over time they can convert that into they can convert that into the into their kitty but the the the real issue for the government would be is now that taxes and all that they have been very aggressive on that how far can you go with taxes? That's the issue because already, if you look at Sri Lanka now, normally I mean corporate tax is 30% plus there's a dividend tax of 15% which nobody talks about, right? So overall, I mean, end of the day, a business, you know, if you're a shareholder, you want to take your money out. No, so that's how businesses work. So you're looking at 45% right? To the point of where the corporate is taxed, or no matter you have the VAT and all the other taxes that go with it. Then you have personal income tax of 36% So we are a third world country or developing country that runs first world country tax system. Right? How far can you stretch that? If you are buying a motor vehicle, these are small things. If you are building a house on things like cement tile and all that your your your you have massive tariffs that you have to pay, right? And that's like a normal you know dream for a person to build their own house. Yeah. If you're buying a car, your tax at 200% right? Right. So all that factored in how much more can you tax tax tax tax? So that is something we need to see. So if that is the case, then a another thing the government need to look at is one thing is the government spending. I mean, there are state-owned enterprises which are still sucking in sucking in a lot of public funds that you know people's hard-earned money, tax money that's going. But yeah, we'll be interesting charindra chandrasena 28:16 to see what Sri Lankan the the committee you know actually delivers. So Speaker 1 28:20 so that is now that is one. Second, this thing is you know the government still getting involved in business and all that, right? I mean the thing is, are they going to completely give it over to the private sector? Let the private sector run it, which is more profitable for them, because if the private sector, then you know this something you always say, they are just going to get 36% on on a business, then someone else is running exactly and taking all the risk. charindra chandrasena 28:43 Yeah. Speaker 1 28:43 So so there are some fundamental things that they need to do, and if they do that, totally the growth is going to come in. Right. Because yeah, because with this four to 5% growth, I don't think we are going to get anywhere. Dhananath Fernando 28:54 And adding to what Riyadh said, you asked like whether are we on the right track, whether on in terms of controllable. So I think the debt to GDP ratio it was about 118% at one point in 2022. It has brought down to less, I mean, less than 100% Revenue side is good as Riyadh mentioned. So fiscal side is in order. Primary balance is like a record surplus. So those are things. But whether why I say while ETI has we have shown some progress. Ultimate Chari in marketing world, it says no perception is reality. So the way that you can check whether actually the finally the market is looking it in the same terms is to check the yields of the bonds. So when you look at the bond rates, like the yield rates of our 2030 2035 bond, which are already restructured, which is trading at about 8% 8.5% compared to the U.S. bond rate of about four 4% 4.3% So they are asking for a bond which is a global price is about 4% They are asking for a almost. Twice of it. That spread is basically for the that's a risk premium. So they see inflation, risk exchange, risk political risk, or whatever the risk. But that charindra chandrasena 30:09 also could come down with a rating upgrade. Exactly. So that can Dhananath Fernando 30:13 come down with a rating upgrade, and for the rating upgrade, we have to work that. And that's where there are other reforms. What Riyadh said because it is not just you really cannot just increase the debt to GDP. I mean, bring the debt to debt to GDP down, or like increase the cut down the public expenditure. You have to cut down it by making some changes, and that is where the reform story comes in. And I think that's why people need to support us. Yeah, yeah. I'm charindra chandrasena 30:38 I'm coming to that. But before we go to the message, last word because people will be interested in this. In terms of the sustainability, right now it looks like we are on the right track. Am I correct? Dhananath Fernando 30:49 Yeah, we are on the right track, but we have in. I mean, we are definitely in the right direction. The right direction. But whether we are running fast enough is a question mark. We are not running on the opposite direction, we on the right direction, but whether the speed is enough before the before the challenges basically takes us over, which I'm not sure, but definitely I think we are in the right direction. charindra chandrasena 31:14 Right. Okay. So that's about it in terms of what we have time for. Yeah. Before we wind up, yeah. So basically, that's Dhananath Fernando 31:22 why I think people. That's why we ask the support of our kind Advocata viewership, because what we provide is a data-driven, independent analysis. And of course, in the market system, everything has a cost. And of course, to bring this kind of episodes free of charge, and we have a single channel which has about 80,000 followers on approximate about 80,000 followers on YouTube and more than 100,000 followers on Facebook. That requires a lot of content creation and also to provide economic literacy and economic education. That has a cost. So that's why we are asking you to join as an Advocata insider, which will help to build a policy community who supports really the changes, the little changes that we spoke about to take Sri Lanka forward. But at the same time, when you are supporting Sri Lanka, you will also get some exclusive benefits like analysis on stock market, property market, exchange rate, and other macroeconomic indicators, which will help you to make you know help you to make better decisions on the business. So it's 12,000 rupees a year, 1000 rupees a month, and we are upgrading our platform also. So please consider supporting Advocata inside. charindra chandrasena 32:35 Right. With that we can wind up. Thanks, Dana, and thanks, Riyad. Even though you were sick, you are here. And thanks, everybody, for tuning in. Let us know your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. We will see you again next week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai