charindra chandrasena 00:06 Hi Daranad. Hi, I like your haircut. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. You look young, and that I should maintain that actually. Yeah. I am young. Yeah, the hi hat. I like your haircut. So my, I don't myself no. Matan, Speaker 1 00:25 Matan Philips streamer. You just run it over. That's it. charindra chandrasena 00:28 No, but it's it's wonderful how you can maintain that you know the top part. Speaker 1 00:33 Matcha, years of experience. Years of experience. charindra chandrasena 00:35 All right. All right. All right. Speaker 1 00:40 Coming into business. Coming into business, yes. charindra chandrasena 00:42 So this week, I mean, and how when we say this week in the show, just for the audience to understand, we mean from the end of Tuesday to the end of Monday, right? So that week, quite a bit happened. We had death sentences handed out to a former IJP and the Independence Secretary. We have the raging debate about whether the retirement age extension for the judges is good or whether it's undemocratic. That debate rages on. We also saw in terms of the weather patterns and all of that. Currently, a lot of areas in Sri Lanka are struggling and suffering. So our thoughts go out to them as well. But one thing that caught my eye was how much Sri Lanka actually spoke about what happened in Spain. So Ceuta is a Spanish territory, but it's actually in North Africa, and the there was a massive influx of Moroccan Moroccan citizens. You know, we assume who just went into it 50,000 plus in one day. Yeah, and globally, the from the Donald Trump administration to Georgia Maloney's administration in Italy, all of them took this and ran with it because it fits their narrative of anti-immigration, greater border control, and all of that. The Sri Lankan angle was actually surprisingly quite similar, you know, and and I don't know whether fortunately or unfortunate, but quite similar. And there was a lot of talk about border control, immigration control, but there was also this whole Islamophobic angle that was coming in because Morocco is 99% Muslim country, Speaker 2 03:04 yeah. charindra chandrasena 03:04 So quite unfortunate in that sense. But I want to pick up on that, guys, and and talk about something that the Minister of Industries was talking about, Sunil Hanunneti. What he was talking about recently, where he said there are more than 400,000 job vacancies in Sri Lanka, and this was the first of July, so just over a month ago. Now, before we go into what we should do about it, can can you explain why we have these job vacancies? What does that mean? Does it mean that there are jobs that nobody wants to do, or does it mean that we have a shortage of people who are suitable for those jobs. Dhananath Fernando 04:02 So, from what I gather, Jari on the it's a news article, so I'm not very sure about the numbers. But likely, I'm sure there are shortages. So, charindra chandrasena 04:10 the news article is is from the Daily Mirror, and they are quoting by the minister. Yeah, so we'll give the benefit of the route to Daily Mirror that they have quoted correctly. So, if that is on that assumption. I'm sure there is Dhananath Fernando 04:22 a shortage of labour. Now I think there are multiple aspects. How how I see now these are from the from what I gather from the minister of industries. Now the these are kind of white collar jobs as well as blue collar jobs. It could be because it's in the manufacturing industry. So the truth is when your labour, like when your country standards improving, then everyone wants sort of a you know no one really wants to work at the factory floors unless there's like a salary in I mean there's a premium salary or there's a way that you work. Everybody wants to have white collar. Jobs in front of a computer, executive jobs and all that. charindra chandrasena 05:02 Yeah, just to just to add to that, what you said, the industries that this article mentions are construction, tiles and accessories, footwear, leather products, and the automobile sector. Absolutely. So a smack bang in the middle of what you were talking about. Absolutely. Dhananath Fernando 05:17 So then, because of the the number of graduates and all that there may be definitely a shortage of labour on these industries I think that's that's normal also the other thing is the population dynamics at the same time we are having kind of a shifting towards the ageing population but as we discussed before we also have a youth bulge that is coming in to the workforce, but they are compute literacy, high English kind of you know better English knowledge, more internet penetration. So they really they don't want to work at factory flow. So they also so that charindra chandrasena 05:55 youth bulge is not necessarily going to fill up this verdict. Dhananath Fernando 05:59 At the same time, it doesn't mean just because it's a factory floor job doesn't mean that it doesn't require experience. These may also be kind of technical jobs which is at the factory floors like engineers they have to work in an engineering like a environment. So this could be that. So I think that is really even if you really want to find a plumber or a electrician, it's not very easy. So I think that's that's the shortage is really even at the very high level. Even some of the white collar jobs, the the mid-tier management, the hospitals, some of the doctors, consultants are also because of multiple reasons. Many people have left the country, so there's a shortage. And to run that experienced tier, it's very difficult. Even I was coming from a meeting with the leasing association. They also said like when you open for job vacancies, very difficult to find people. So I think that's that's that's real. That's a problem because labour market is one of the main factor markets. You, if you really really want to improve the economic productivity-you have to have capable, experienced people who are productive. So this is a real challenge. charindra chandrasena 07:05 Yeah. So on that, so you mentioned two things. One is the demographic side of things, and the other thing is that generally Sri Lankan. I mean, so so many certain people don't want to work below a certain tier, right now this is not unique to Sri Lanka. This is a global phenomenon that a lot of countries experience because when, say, for example, per capita income improves, when the quality of life improves, people don't necessarily want to work on factory floors in plantations. Generally, that is the case. How does this does it affect the economy? And and if so, how? Dhananath Fernando 07:56 Yeah, you want to take a separate? Yeah. Speaker 1 07:58 Okay. So the thing is, definitely, if there's a labour shortage, obviously it's going to have a hit on the economy, right? Unless the economy is highly what you call industrialised or let's say automated. Now, Sri Lanka, the economy. If you take the economy, mostly if you take the apparel sector and particularly some other sectors, it's not automated that much. That means, which means we need quite a bit of what you call labour that goes into it, right? So currently we have two problems. One thing is when you look at the shortage of labour. One thing is just I'm just going through stage by stage. One thing is the necessary birth rate that we that you need for for example with the expansion of the economy and the number of labour that you need, that is number one. I think that was we are a little bit behind. I think we need two point. Don't hold me on the numbers, but I'm pretty sure it's behind. I think we are below replacement level. No. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So the thing is that we are behind replacement level. I think Sri Lanka birth rate should be 2.4 or something like that. 10, I think it's 1.7 or something like that. I'm not exactly sure about the number, so don't hold me on that. So that is number one. Second, this thing is you get the two types of migration. One thing is the permanent migration. There, the people have gone into other countries. Let's say you know the Australia's, the UK's, the US, Canada, and all that. That of course is the skill level because these are professionals who are migrating out. The other one is you get the Middle East, Middle East and certain parts of Africa where you get people who go for mostly Middle East, where they go for mostly labour intensive work, right? So so on charindra chandrasena 09:38 the Middle East front, we used to, and I think still the perception is that we are sending housemaids. Speaker 1 09:46 Yes, domestic. No, it has changed now. That's my point. The charindra chandrasena 09:48 perception is that exactly that's still the case. Yeah, that has changed. Yes, but has it changed from that to skilled labour? And if so, to what level? Speaker 1 09:58 So there are two. Two parts. One part is relatively skilled. Also, now for example, you get more welders and you know truck drivers, mechanics, and all going. So that's one reason. What you said. Just to add to that, yeah, Dhananath Fernando 10:13 even the statistics cherry shows the recent migration trend is mainly skilled and male. Speaker 1 10:19 Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 10:20 When we were schooling, we were told like it's a household work, houseplants, you know, your amma kaguza, the other one was. It is completely has changed, completely changed like upside down. Yeah, and very important. It's not. I mean, the the females who are migrating are unfortunately at their like it's above 4550, So likely they are struggling here. So they are migrating, and it's mainly for Kuwait. Speaker 1 10:45 Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 10:46 But mainly it's between 24 to 2930, are the ones who are migrating. charindra chandrasena 10:51 Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 10:52 Main skill, and that's one reason our remittance numbers are picking up. Now, if you look at like last year, it was about 8 million, 8 billion US dollars for the entire year. Now, for the first six months, it's about 4.5 billion already. So that means generally the remittances picks up in November, December, and in March because for the April season. So with that, likely it will hit about 9 billion. So this is now you see the probably people are sending money to an extent from those who migrated during the economic crisis. Now only after two, three years they are settling down and sending back. So I think that's where the dynamics. Dynamics are Speaker 1 11:31 because the thing is, if you take for example, let's say you take a manual labourer, right? The amount manual labourer would make, and let's say a welder, I mean a guy who has gone to technical college or something and learn welding. Oh, let's say AC technician, let's say a auto mechanic, it'll be 3x 4x more. Same person, it's one person, but the income goes up by three to 4x, right? That is there. Even if you take manual labour, let's say labour intensive or something, sometimes they prefer to get people from Sri Lanka because the reason is our literacy rate is much higher. For example, let's say comparatively with Bangladesh and Nepal and all that. Even India literacy is much higher. So when you get a person who is more, at least who can read and write and all that, it's easier to work with them because they understand. You can write. You can give better tasks to them. So that is one part. Now going into that, we are looking at the people that we need to replace. Now, for example, as you said, the industry that you said there is a shortage, and some of the shortages are actually quite labor-intensive wars, especially construction. So already there are some big construction companies on project-wise they have labour that they bring down for absolutely yeah. But but charindra chandrasena 12:40 before that, Riyadh, I want to also finish this point about okay. So we have the shortage. This is not something that is going to change in the future, right? This is not a temporary thing. No, no, no. Because the trend that we have seen, the empirical evidence points to it not being sorted out with and you know higher birth rates even because those people may not in a country they may not want to work at that level. No, no, true. Speaker 1 13:12 So the thing is the Middle East migration. I mean, one thing that actually forces that is what is. I mean, we spoke about this on the in another programme also in another episode. So the thing is, what's the main thing? You want to basically make it a particular age. You want to marry, then you want to get a you want to get a vehicle. You want to get a you start with a bike, then go to a car, and then finally get a house. So if you look at a Sri Lankan, like if you take a Sri Lankan, someone who's there, it's very difficult to do that because incomes are not sufficient. That's one of the reasons they go. Because I know a few people that that who used to work for my family. They went overseas. The simple reason when I asked them was like, okay, couldn't you find something here? And what they said does no. The what they said was no. The real problem is you know with that income we can't build a house. So all of them their target was to go there to the Middle East. Where can be Qatar, can be Saudi, can be Dubai, anywhere. Go there, work for 10 years or 15 years or something. Make enough money. Come back here, build a house, and maybe have a little bit of money and start a business or something. Maybe buy a car, become what you call, get into the tourism sector where you you have your own car, you drive people around, things like that. So for them to get that and to make that purchase, they can't do it here with their income. That's one of the reasons they actually went out. So that is going to continue, right? Because this current economic pattern, even though the country is much stable than what it was, but still affordability is a big problem in Sri Lanka. I mean, affordability is absolute problem, and there was a report also. No, Colombo is among ranked among I think number one, the most unaffordable city in the world to buy a house. Sorry, in the world to buy a house, right? So the thing is, as long as that persists, people are going to go out, if you like it or not, right? So that's where the problem is, right? Then the other thing, what's going to happen is we are going to have people who are going out of the country, and we are going to have shortage inside the country. The construction industry, to a certain extent, has addressed them by project-wise getting people to come and work from. I, I think mostly from I think from places like Bangladesh, Nepal, even from India and all that. They're going to get people who come temporarily do the project and they go back, right? But then again, there are social problems that come with that later on. Yeah, charindra chandrasena 15:19 yeah. On that also, can we go into exactly how this affects the economy? What is the impact on GDP growth, on industry expansion of not having this? Because I don't think a lot of people when they say okay labour shortage, yes, but how does that actually translate into economy? Yeah, Dhananath Fernando 15:42 yeah. So mainly it is on multiple fronts. First stage, the GDP growth slows down because, for an example, let's say construction industry when they don't have workers, everything gets stalled. So as a result, and construction, for an example, is the main contributor for the GDP growth. So when they don't have people to work, it basically gets stalled. So basically, when it stalls, the cement, the steel, and everything, basically blocks down. So that will shrink the or like slows down the growth on one side, and then the cost. When you don't have labour, then you have to either automate at a very high price or you have to hire people paying a premium rate. So that basically that comes down to what they are basically charindra chandrasena 16:23 erodes their margins. No, exactly erodes Dhananath Fernando 16:24 their margins, and also for housing and all investments, their prices goes up. So that basically distract. I mean, you know, investment won't come in because they know the cost of construction is high, and then the housing prices will go up. Everything, the prices, the retail expansion, the warehouses, the logistics-it's become unaffordable, or like we don't have the competitiveness, so it slows down entirely. And this is only like one construction segment. Let's take a hospital when they don't have like caretakers, people to work. It's a problem. Let's take even like gig workers, like you know the the delivery guys and all of them completely the ecosystem basically slowly shuts down. So that has a massive impact on the GDP and it brings down the productivity and efficiency because then it becomes slower, takes time, and delays is a cost. So overall, either the prices are going to go up. When the prices are going to go up, the demand or like less people will pay or ask for that good or service, and at the same time, it completely shrinks down the overall growth on all sectors, and that affects the banking system everyone because they're closer. So that's the main issue on the overall economy. That means you are not earning enough either. Even if you earn, your the prices are going to go up. charindra chandrasena 17:41 Absolutely. Now, moving to solutions. So, as Riyad mentioned, the there are two solutions, and I think the other solution you mentioned, automation. But in terms of automation, we are still in 2026. So we are, I think, a few years away from being able to automate everything. So we need humans still. They are working on humanoid robots, especially in the U.S. and China. And when you see the way they move, it's very clunky, right? Like it feels like those science fiction movies, the bad ones where the robots move like that, you know. So the hands, especially the hands, whether the the the humanoid robots, the the the reason that it's still slow when we got everything else done, is they can't get the hands and the feet, the legs properly because the movements are not. It's not an intellectual thing. It's the physical part of it. So we are far away from that type. No, but Speaker 1 18:48 then again, Charlie, the the I mean, recently the Chinese government put up a fantastic kung fu show with robots. So I don't know. Yeah. So I don't know your your theory about the hands and you know. charindra chandrasena 19:01 I I I hope people understand that because they they would not have seen it. They might think you're being serious, but there's a there's a robot two two robos fighting. Yeah, and one of the robos actually kicks the other robo in the head. Yeah, and the head falls off, and this robot just keeps punching. Yeah, and the opponent is behind him, and then before that, actually, there was a Michael Jackson. So the moonwalk was being done by a robo, and the robo falls and gets up a little bit and falls again after that, and then his legs are moving and he's on the floor. Yeah, right. So so we can see that. Yeah. So we we are we are a we are a bit but Speaker 1 19:43 the technology, Chari. Like if you take the evolution of what you call, I know if I know what's the amp word to use, maybe it's a robotic. Yeah. Right. The robotics. Robotics. Yeah. So the thing charindra chandrasena 19:57 is, it's incredible. I mean, the rate, the rate, it's. Of course, of course, yeah. It'll it'll get there. So I mean, someday, but I mean, we are we are a few years away from that. Is my point, right? So if you leave out that option, because automation is already there in assembly lines and all of that. Yeah. But if you take out that option for Sri Lanka right now, what we are left with, because there's no solution coming domestically for this, right? I mean, short of what Dana said, increase in the salaries and all other, which which you know down the line has other impacts. So, short of automation, what we have is exporting. Sorry, importing labour, importing workers, getting foreign workers in. Now, as Riyad mentioned earlier, this is already happening on a project basis at a at a at a micro level. So I don't want to mention the projects, but think of all the huge construction projects. They are just a component of foreign labour, and most of that foreign labour comes from the country that is funded in the project. Correct. So it could be India, it could be China, whatever. Now, does this need to? So at the moment, that is happening. Does it need to be expanded beyond projects, and made a national policy to address this issue. Dana, you can start, and then yes, Dhananath Fernando 21:30 yes. In the sense, I will first, Chari. Now you know. Look at the first principles thinking. Why the why you have to have foreigners working here? Like any any national or anything like same way like you know Sri Lankans also go to New York and Stockholm and London and work. So the economic theory is chary. When you work with a diverse pool of genes or like different people, there's something called tacit knowledge. Tacit knowledge is something that you cannot code or like you cannot learn by reading a book or like watching a video just by taking a course. It's like the classic example I generally give is Lasit Ma Ling's death 10 bowling or like his bowling action, regardless of how much you watch and slow motion you can watch, but you hardly can bowl like Malingar. The only reason probably he being hired for IPL and for Mumbai Indians is when you work with him, there is a type of knowledge that you get that you really cannot show. This is exactly it is, but by only working, you get a hang of it. charindra chandrasena 22:41 So, in in his time in the IPL, he actually worked with India's Jasper Boomra, who is now possibly the greatest bowler in the world in this generation, and especially in the limited overseas format. Yeah, not test. Not test. Yeah, limited overs format, and he is the one who mentored Boomra on bowl those Yorkers, so absolutely correct what you said. Dhananath Fernando 23:04 Absolutely, so there there can be many things. Even when the Japanese they do the steel in their cars, I think there's a there's a thing that not others can really crack. So there there there are steel which uses for vehicle. Speaker 1 23:17 Yeah, Dhananath Fernando 23:18 I mean lasts long, and there's there are things that you know that precision that the five ways and all that even that you can see if someone goes to Japan work there and come back they have some skills which you really cannot teach right so that's the first principles thinking so when you work with those people there's a tacit tacit knowledge that transfers and that creates more innovation because they bring something. You also have something, and the the combination happens, and it leads to a generation of something new. It also happens with productivity. So if you are only looking at that's why I want to expand the conversation. Don't think okay construction industry no people let's bring them. Delivery no people let's bring them. Paddy fields, no people. It's not the case. It's just when you bring people, there's a tacit knowledge component. So I'm talking about kindly a higher level, high level in the sense. I'm not talking about only like the normal labour that we really need to have, but also at the senior level, you bring stuff, and that's was the theory of the Silicon Valley. If you look at Silicon Valley, it's mainly the immigrants were working there, starting from you know cities up to everybody. They were migrated from different parts of the world, and then they created these products. But even if you bring for construction project, your question was whether we should expand. I think yes, because otherwise one thing. Let's keep the tacit knowledge aside. But that's the first principle thing. Even if you bring a worker from China or India or wherever, even for a project, they will also have methods at the labourer level, which the others can be more productive. The way that they do things, the equipment that they use, their work ethics that can trans. To an extent for the local sectors as well, but of course it has to have some level of regulation. I'm not saying anyone can just come in. You know, I think that's the way that has been done all over the world. So you have to have a separate visa category, and there's a time frame. the The truth is, this already happens at an informal level. Even if you look at on paddy fee, paddy markets. So not the paddy markets, the paddy fields in Ampar and wherever there are Indian labourers who are working at an informal. Yeah, there are, and even on some of the restaurants I have seen enough YouTube videos, even they are saying he is a Indian chef. Yeah, even if you go to Kolpiti, I mean, you know, there are people who are working. No, so I Speaker 1 25:43 mean, I mean, I mean, there is a there is a there is a restaurant in it's it's a barbecue restaurant. I don't want to tell names because it won't be right. So it's in it's in Colombo. It's completely staffed by Indians. Dhananath Fernando 25:54 And even if you look at the hotel industry, I mean, how are you going to do the Japanese restaurant without like a Japanese chef? Yeah, I mean, you can't really, right? I mean, how are you going to do like a authentic Indian cuisine without an? Speaker 1 26:05 Exactly. So you Dhananath Fernando 26:06 have to have that. And even I have seen not those like five star restaurants. Even if you go down that marine drive, even I know for short term there are people coming and doing these South Indian shops and all that. I don't know the legality of it, but I'm sure you have to have some level of regulation and not like everyone can come and start businesses. But that's a separate thing. But the truth is, markets. That's why we generally say markets are always right. Even if there's a restriction, it moves towards that direction. Ultimately, you don't have any other solution rather than regulating it or you know having necessary controls and making it operationalized. So that's what I am saying. You have to expand, otherwise your economic productivity will come down, and it's a good thing because look at the productivity improvements have done by the Sri Lankans in other parts of the world. I think recently this lady retired from Australia who was a CEO. Oh yes, Madhwari. charindra chandrasena 26:57 No, yeah, Mad Quarry. So Dhananath Fernando 26:59 likewise, Sri Lankans have done tremendous. Even if you go to Australia and UK, the quite well doing diaspora are from. So the Speaker 1 27:08 thing is, even Jeff Bezos also one of the richest people in the world. But he said that famous this thing that there was a I think he's a professor now, Yoshant or someone. Yes, yes. Yeah, he said he was the guy who solved the maths problem which he couldn't, right? So his charindra chandrasena 27:21 actual name is Yasant Rajakaruna Nayak or something. Yeah, right. So he says Yasant, Yashan, something like that. So that's a that's a fantastic story. And Dhananath Fernando 27:31 even at Meta and all of them, I mean, we our friends, our university graduates are working very closely. I mean, on all these tech companies. I'm sure there are everyone knows who works for Apple and all. So there is a massive. I mean, at higher level there is a contribution, but why not at that level? Because otherwise your economic productivity will come. But of course, it has to come with a regular. I mean, some level of regulation. You can't really like open it up. Maybe identify like what skills that are required and all that. There has to be some level which I haven't gone into detail. Okay, charindra chandrasena 28:00 so I'll I'll I'll ask the next question, and then maybe Riyadh can start on this, and then Dana, you can come in. Firstly, if you are in agreement with what Dana said, okay. What about what the Western countries are going through? Okay, now the reason we started this conversation was about Spain, right? Now, after what happened in Spain, Italy suspended their Schengen visa with Spain because they had their mobility through the Schengen, Speaker 1 28:32 yeah, charindra chandrasena 28:32 and they suspended it. Then the EU leaders, as we record, are talking about having a meeting to make sure this doesn't happen and to have the safeguards and all of that in the U.S. which is probably the capital of labour migration, over the last 10 years, especially there has been a massive backlash. They are coming from all over the world and taking our jobs. That's what they say. That is affecting our economy because our livelihoods are being taken away. Our families can't be, you know, sustained. How do you ensure that doesn't happen in Sri Lanka? Speaker 1 29:14 So that's a tricky one to find answers. I mean, the the thing is, there is for mobility. There are certain things that that happen. For example, culturally also there are issues. That's the main thing everyone is mostly worried about. Now, for example, there are cases where people go, they they go into the labour market. There they work, they keep on working, and they try to get citizenship. And sometimes they find their spouse also from there, right? And then that creates another ecosystem. Now, for example, if you take Sri Lankans also, I mean, lot of Sri Lankans who have gone overseas have married people from from those countries like Italy and all that, right? So the thing is, that's if you like it or not, that's part of how mobility works. Now the problem is, it becomes when there is a economic downturn, only these things pop. Then everyone thinks you know I am currently unemployed because you know all these guys who have come from overseas and all that 10 and they have taken over my job, but the real reason is the person from the overseas who has taken over your job is probably he is more skilled than you, probably he is working harder than you, probably he is more qualified than you, where you have not, you have not upskilled. You have been in your little cocoon, and the rest of the world has gone forward. Then you have kind of left yourself behind, right? So that's where these problems, that's where these problems start. Now, if you take, I'll just bring another economic angle to this. For example, there has been a lot of backlash about a lot of Londoners, right, who are complaining that they can't, you know, they used to live, you know, they can't live in the city. They used to live because they have been priced out. They have been priced out by, for example, can be the Qataris, can be the Saudis, can be Russians, can be anyone, right? Can be the Indians, can be anyone. They have they have been priced out, right? But the thing is, no one talks about the capital these people have bought. I mean, London is still the epicentre of let's say global finance, one of the epicentres, right? Is because of the capital these people have bought. If those people pull their capital out, London is nothing, right? That's how that economy runs, right? So there are two sides of the story. So if you don't, if you don't basically, as a citizen of that country, if you have not gone with the world or if you are not upskilled yourself and you have been, you know, this lethargic kind of a setup, then obviously you are going to be at the receiving end. So that is the that is the problem. What is happening? Because none of those people who are working, they are all taxpayers, right? Not that they work and they don't pay taxes. No, they pay their taxes. They are contributing to the economy in so many other ways and all that, right? Only problem is that particular person has left himself out, charindra chandrasena 32:03 right? Has taken Speaker 1 32:04 things easy. So then, what happens? You get, you get, you know, you you get left behind. You get left behind. You're on the sidewalk. Yeah, where the other people are on the other people are on the main road. My Dhananath Fernando 32:15 argument, sorry. And and charindra chandrasena 32:16 just just on as an example, what happened in Japan? Yeah. Japan, Japan had a is actually still having a 30-plus year economic stagnation. Correct, because Dana, you might remember when we were kids, right? And Riyadh obviously remembers, Japan was number two in the world. Speaker 3 32:40 Yeah, charindra chandrasena 32:41 right. Just after the U.S. Speaker 3 32:42 yeah, charindra chandrasena 32:42 and since then it has been going down, down, down, right. And that economic stagnation is one of the reasons that an economist point to is that they didn't open up their labour market fast enough, yeah, right, because Japan, I think, like Sri Lanka a little bit, right? Has this whole we are homogenous people. We, you know, we are we are the true Japanese, and we don't want to mix too much kind of vibe. Now, Sri Lanka also, I see that a little bit, especially maybe in the singular Buddhist community. So, how do we ensure that we don't go the Japanese route, but also we don't have the issues that Europe and America are having? Right. So that's Dhananath Fernando 33:30 kind of a complicated one, Jari, in in my view. Why? Because I think now, if you look at the jobs overall, okay, the worry is that someone will, someone else will come and take over your job, sort of a thing. But the truth is, even if you really look at who takes over the job, it's not the your you know neighbouring countries or whoever is migrating. It's the technology, like AI and even look at let's forget AI after the computer. How many jobs have been like you know redesigned? Yeah, how many jobs are basically being lost, right? So it's like if you if you really are worried about like the jobs, it's basically technologies over a period of time replacing. Like I mean, earlier like how now every company runs on some level of a system. Earlier it wasn't the case, right? There were peers and everyone done. Now it's going to completely change. So if you are worried about job security at someone else, it's a technology. Microsoft has taken away more jobs than probably any other neighbouring country. Speaker 1 34:32 Absolutely. I mean, I'll give you a good example. Right back in the day, let's say news, let's say let's say like a TV channel. Let's say 20 years ago, or maybe a little bit more, there used to be like they used to have a helicopter that actually gives updates and all that, right? You get a helicopter and you get a helicopter pilot who used to go, you know, take over where they used to show these famous car chases and all in the U.S. and all that, right? Completely replaced by a drone. I mean, technology came in two jobs. Completely wiped out, and that helicopter also, right? The people who make the helicopter can be Bell, can be Sarkozy, can be anyone. Part of that supply chain also some of the jobs would have gone because there is no supply for helicopter. So that's how this thing. But also, it Dhananath Fernando 35:13 creates new jobs at the same time. The drone industry and all that. Exactly. So that's number one. Number two, I also feel cherry. There's a lack of global leadership Because unfortunately, earlier because for this migration to work to really accept people, because even Advocata our vision and mission is very clear. We, I mean, hard work and free trade should work. We do not, I mean, based on caste creed or their ethnicity, we should not judge people. Everyone is a human being based on your meritocracy. Whether you work, you should be rewarded, right? By understand, there are limitations when you cross borders and all that, which is completely fine. But there's a poor global leadership because they, when they move to the extreme end, it affects at multiple layers. And unfortunately, there's no global leadership at that scale to really think forward. So as a result, when they make these very short-sighted decisions, and you can already see the disruption. And I think now this-I mean, even if you recall President Trump's tariff story, now now there were also during the tariffs being imposed. I saw there were so many conversations. Okay, look what they are doing. The same question you asked. Okay, now they are restricting migration. Now they are looking at domestic domestic manufacturing. Just now go and look at how many manufacturing jobs has been lost in the U.S. Just now go and check. Like, what's the price impact on on U.S. So it has it has taken its own time to really show the real colours of restricting your economies, and it will continue to do. Unfortunately, so because of that, we can see some incidents that the response have been very very poor. That's that's one side, but on the other side, I think countries like Sri Lanka have to open up because even if you recall, Chari, our I mean history is from kind of migration, right? We all been. I mean, even the Sinhala Buddhists, the Buddhism was. I mean, it came from Arahat Mi Hindu from India, right? Even Vijay came here, and then Sangamitta Thero came here. Even what we was what was being taught in the textbook is that most of the skills that came, like the that the what do you call the the the crafting and all that creativity came. That civilization happened as a part of this cultural exchange. Even if you look at some of the food items, like the the the chilies came from Portuguese, the the the bakery products came from Dutch. Of course, they have a good and bad, right? The tea. So there has been good and bad overall. But that generally, when you have that tacit knowledge transfer, it improves your productivity and it makes you a better person as human. So that's where we have to think through. So charindra chandrasena 37:56 very interesting, and I think what you're saying is absolutely fact-based and makes all the sense in the world, but convincing people Speaker 1 38:08 absolutely of charindra chandrasena 38:09 this is the challenge. Because if you think Sri Lanka is a country of immigrants, Sri Lanka is nowhere near America in terms of being a country of immigrants, Speaker 1 38:21 of course, charindra chandrasena 38:22 and because that is absolutely built on immigration, because over here we had waves of immigration. Speaker 1 38:28 Absolutely, it's a country which was charindra chandrasena 38:29 separated. Yeah, in America, it's purely unbroken wave of immigration we have had for 250 years. Absolutely. So, Speaker 1 38:40 so even the so the thing is even the names that in this thing, New York used to be New Amsterdam. That's how it started. Then it became New York because of the Brits, because of York, right? So it was mostly what it was mostly at the beginning. It was Dutch, British, and Irish, and German. charindra chandrasena 38:59 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the Italians also came. Yeah, Italians came later on. Yeah. So, so over here, what measures do we have to take? I know this is not purely economics, but what measures do we have to take to ensure that the economic plan is not derailed through this? Correct. Right. Because if now one one famous thing the far right in the UK says is London used to be white, right? Meaning there were white people there. Now it's all brown and black and maybe yellow. Yeah. Right. So this kind of anything but white. Anything but white. So this kind of racist rhetoric. Sri Lanka has a bad history of racism. Dhananath Fernando 39:39 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 39:40 How do we ensure? What is the regulation that we need to have? Dhananath Fernando 39:43 Yeah, so I think first is now in terms of if you look at Sri Lanka's migration wave, some people left for political reasons, which is like the 80s migration. For them, it's very difficult to get them back because now they are global series. I mean, those. They migrated in the 80s. They are like citizens of Canada and UK and US and everywhere. So they are literally not Sri Lankan citizens anymore. While they have a Sri Lankan origin, so they are they have a very bad, unpleasant memory. That's the problem. And even if you look at the statistics compared to the population, the size of the population, since Sri Lanka is a small country, actually our diaspora community as a percentage of our population is one of the highest in the world, even above Philippines, above Singapore, above Thailand, above Vietnam, above Costa Rica. No one knows it. I mean, India has a has a number large diaspora, but compared to their population size, it's not Sri Lanka is way beyond that, right? So as a as and if you look at the regulatory front, even we have issued about 5000 visas for the last 10 years for foreigners. charindra chandrasena 40:48 Oh, is it okay? Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 40:49 So one thing is that you have to have a separate visa category. You mean charindra chandrasena 40:53 work visas? Work visa category to work Dhananath Fernando 40:55 here. Number one. Number two, the spouses of the foreigners who are, I mean, there's a cross culture. There are Sri Lankans who have married foreigners, so for them working is very difficult here because they really can't apply for a job. They have to renew their visa every every year, every two years. So that regulation has to be relaxed because that's actually you know skills that you are eliminated. So charindra chandrasena 41:21 the spouse needs to be given a work visa as well. Dhananath Fernando 41:24 Correct. charindra chandrasena 41:25 Right. Okay. Dhananath Fernando 41:26 And they, yeah. So they have to get a work visa to work. If you are married to a Sri Lankan, even if you are a foreigner, even if you are female, for males there is very difficult, very difficult even to get into the system. So what charindra chandrasena 41:41 you're proposing Dhananath Fernando 41:42 is yeah you you you you minimise the frequency to renew the visa and give them the access to work because some of them are actually Sri Lankans, you know imagine someone migrated in the 80s and married to a Sri Lankan here. Just as an example, let's say a hypothetical case. Now she she or she may be a Australian citizen, but she may have born here and like, but she may not taking like a dual citizenship for a Sri Lankan passport because, of course, obvious reason. Speaker 1 42:09 No, no, it's a. I'll give you a classical personal experience. I'll give you a classical case. So there's a friend of mine. He's his wife is actually Ukrainian, right? So Ukraine has a policy, and she has been living in Sri Lanka for the last 20 plus years, right? I mean, married dear has a has a child here and all that. So the thing is, she she was trying to get the Sri Lankan what you call citizenship. But the thing is, Ukraine doesn't allow a dual citizenship, right? So she has to go and cancel a citizenship in Ukraine and come back, and which Ukraine is not currently not allowing, because Ukraine is scared because a lot of people are leaving Ukraine, so they are not doing that. So her passport ran out. Now passport is normally shoot for 10 years, right? I'm I'm telling you, this is actual thing. She had to actually when the passport ran out, technically she she became a person without without citizenship. Yeah, without a citizenship, or rather with a what do you call expired passport, which means she can't live here, right? Which means she can't. I mean, she can't do anything, right? She she had to fly back to Ukraine, right? And I think she Colombo, I think Middle East somewhere from there, Poland, Poland, to something, and had to take a, I think a 12-hour or 20-hour bus journey to Ukraine to go and renew her passport and take the same journey back. Just imagine the audio. I mean, she is going to active war zone just to get this thing. So the scenario is, I inquired with some people in in in the foreign service. What they said the law is such that there's nothing we can do. I mean, we can definitely we will love to give up because the husband is Sri Lankan and she is living here to give. But the problem is the Ukrainian agreement is because Ukraine is a country that doesn't give dual citizenship. So because of that, we can't do anything. Dhananath Fernando 43:55 Yeah, and don't forget, don't forget. Let's say people like Arthur C. Clarke, which we celebrate proudly. I mean, where are they coming from? So, so those cases, I'm sure there is already like there are you know irregularities taking place for sure. There are scammers and everyone who is here. But if you try to judge only by scammers on every citizen, that's not fair. That's charindra chandrasena 44:21 that's a good point. There is a general tendency to oppose migration. I mean, skilled labour migration around the world. But in Sri Lanka, it's also about which country they are coming from. Speaker 4 44:36 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 44:36 You know. So there are stereotypes about certain countries. Yeah. The people in this country are cheap. Speaker 1 44:42 Yeah. charindra chandrasena 44:42 The people from this country are loud. The people from this country are rude. Whatever, whatever you know. So that that kind of perceptional change also needs to happen, right? Yeah. To be a socially cohesive. Speaker 1 44:57 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So I'll I'll give you this thing. Do you know the. Who was the first outside person, like say non-Sri Lankan citizen, that was given a citizenship? charindra chandrasena 45:06 No, no. Speaker 1 45:06 Take a guess. Apparently, what I heard was it was Mohideen Beg. Oh yes, he came from Pakistan, was it? India. India, no. Yeah, right. Ah, at the time, no. At the time, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the thing is, like, you take any Vesak, you take any Vesak that goes, any Pandal that goes. You know the famous. Speaker 2 45:25 Yeah. Speaker 1 45:26 I know these. Buddhans are not. Yeah, yeah. It's a sermon, right? So the the thing is, still they still run Mohinin bags recording twice a year. You hear that nonstop for several weeks. Yeah, and even anything. Unmistakably Moisine Beggs. there's no one else who it has Dhananath Fernando 45:44 happened both ways. I think because now if you look at H R Jyotipal's songs, mainly coming from Hindi, from India that I know, right? At the same time, someone like Master Amaradev, he was the one who I think who did some of the national anthems in the Asian region composing was done, so it's always a two-way stream. Two-way Speaker 1 46:04 stream, exactly. Dhananath Fernando 46:05 So we are kind of, you know, for an example, I am a Fernando, so there must be some Portuguese connection or something has happened long time ago. Yeah. So I think everyone is kind of that. Yeah. No, the charindra chandrasena 46:18 unfortunate thing is that Moydenberg is not seen as that no, you know because so the story I heard and again don't hold me on to this but the first time that Buddhist monks went to a Muslim burial ground was when he passed away right is the story I've heard Speaker 1 46:37 okay charindra chandrasena 46:38 okay maybe apocryphal I don't know but for that to happen, and for the songs to still be paid, because nobody had that voice. So when you talk about skills transfer, exactly that voice, right? So nobody, you know. I mean, Speaker 1 46:52 the thing is, these are like you know, these are not like you know, yesterday or 10 years ago. These are like 5060, years ago, maybe at least 50 years ago, right? And still, nobody can mesh that voice. Yeah, right. Dhananath Fernando 47:02 And what I am surprised is now even if you look at generally this kind of more nationalistic, like that racism voice comes from also people who have studied in major schools, with they or have also forgotten. For an example, it was Sir Henry Steele Olcott, and they were not the Sri Lanka citizens who founded their own schools, right? So even if you go also big charindra chandrasena 47:30 schools apart from, I mean, actually even even even Ananda Naranda, right? No, no. So Ananda was Speaker 1 47:35 old court, yeah, right. So Musius was Mary Musius. Both of both of them were from the the what do you call from from the U.S. Dhananath Fernando 47:44 Correct? Speaker 1 47:44 Right. So so even Dhananath Fernando 47:46 like the Tibet Jatik Tibet Jatik is Mahindra. So likewise, there is I think we forgot where I mean where the connection already came in, and there is nothing wrong with that. I mean you can have your own identity also by connecting things like probably the cinnamon and the the cuisines that we have, which was a mix, but you can create your own thing just having you know just because you mix it with each other doesn't you really don't lose your identity at the same time. You just create more and more things. Exactly, Speaker 1 48:17 since you bought it up, I mean, you take any major school in the country, right, including the including arm. If you take, I mean, it's basically all for foreign origin. No, I mean it's it's it's continued, but the thing is all all started with the foreign origin, right? So, so the thing is, so the thing is, I think people at some point, I think they kind of forget that. Dhananath Fernando 48:38 Also, I want to add now, just because it has a foreign origin doesn't also mean that you are foreign. Yeah, exactly. It's not because it has an origin. It doesn't mean that you have lost something. You have that with a foreign origin. You have your own thing. Exactly. That's where what we have to identify. Speaker 1 48:55 So that's the thing because you have your own thing, right? But that doesn't mean that you're foreign, because one one common thing, but I heard from people from other schools, from other what we call state schools, is my school. Why do they? It's only government school that actually the school song is sung in English. So they say. So just for charindra chandrasena 49:16 people, you're from Royal. Yeah. So Speaker 1 49:18 the thing is, that's the thing. Because that is not something. This thing that that that's how the school started, right? That doesn't mean we are a foreign school. No, it's a Sri Lankan school. That's they have their own they have their own style and they have their own thing what they do. That does make them foreign. So that misconception is, I think, massive here. charindra chandrasena 49:37 One one thing about about this that I have always lamented is how we lost our burgers. Oh yes, from the 60s, 70s, 80s, you know, throughout how the burger population, how much they contributed to the economy because burgers are fun, and how much they contributed to in. I mean, Speaker 1 50:00 yeah, some other cricket. I mean, one guy is saying he was saying that basically we lost Michael Bhavan. Oh, so apparently I know there were a couple of Bevans. They say they were living in all. So they say that I don't know. I think Michael Dhananath Fernando 50:14 Bevan's mother or someone is yeah, then these are these Speaker 1 50:19 are the burgers that had migrated out. Dhananath Fernando 50:20 This is the this is the okay. I since Riyadh mentioned school, I mean I should also mention my school. No, no. What I'm surprised is the religious leaders also. This is going to be controversial, but anyway, I'll tell it. But the religious leaders pushing that saying that it's your own thing and you know it has to be locally grown, homegrown sort of a thing, but even if you look at the two major religions, I come. I have studied. I am a Buddhist. I have studied in a Catholic school, Roman Catholic school. Even the high, and I am the high priest of those all religions. When they are pushing that nationalistic kind of sentiment, I think both sides have forgotten. Actually, those religions also coming from different paths, right? It's not born. It's not home grown, right? No, you're right. Roman Catholicism is not homegrown. Buddhism is not like homegrown. It is coming from. It has a global connectivity. And now we are saying that it Speaker 1 51:17 is no, no. So here is Dhananath Fernando 51:18 really doesn't make a lot of sense. No. So then, if you Speaker 1 51:22 take like if you take if you go on the whole school angle, if you take like the schools that are the that have the best mix because we are segregated, the schools that have the best best mix of let's say people from every cast, creed, everything, is those are the schools that actually do very well, right? Because they live in reality. No, from saying from from a young, they know exactly. Okay, they know who you know. They know who are Muslims. They know who are Buddhist is. They know who are Hindu is. They know who are Catholic is. They know who are Christian is. Because they mingle with them from very young age. Because what happens in Sri Lanka is you get segregated. Then it's easy to divide and rule because the division in the ruling starts from the school itself. That's the reason why some particular schools that are there that have a much more vibrant mix, they do very well in anything. That's a simple reason. charindra chandrasena 52:11 Integration. Integration is one which one supported. Yeah, exactly. Speaker 1 52:15 So here, what we have is at a very young age, we have completely segregation. It starts at a school level, absolutely right. And the schools that strictly don't have segregation, they do very well, and the students do very well. So charindra chandrasena 52:26 we have a lot to fix on that front. But yeah, the verdict is that we need labour migration. Otherwise, we are going to have a lot of issues in terms of the economy, and one issue will lead to another, to another, to another, and it will go through the chain. So before we wind up, Dana, your usual. Dhananath Fernando 52:50 Yes. So to fix all this, that's where you have to support Advocata become an Advocata insider. It's 12,000 rupees a year, 1000 rupees a month. Now the most important thing is now topics like this to be discussed. You have to maintain independence. We can't be leaning on corporates or selected donors, and we would like to completely depend on you. And generally, when you are independent, you generally getting get criticised by both sides because you basically saying very unpopular things, which has to be told, which is the truth. So that's why we are asking your support. Even if you cannot support us financially, just there'll be a link in the description. You can get our newsletter free of charge. It's completely free, or else you can write a nice comment or like an endorsement for us, so which the other people can be convinced on supporting us. At the same time, when you are becoming an advocare inside, you are supporting a larger policy community to shape up the policy work that we do. Already, the policy work that we have been doing for the gambling industry, for state-owned enterprises, on paddy market, on tea has really taken traction and really shaped up the national policies. So this requires a lot of talent and effort and time, and we want to remain our independent. So consider supporting an Advocata, becoming an Advocata insider, and you are not just joining a policy community. You are also getting exclusive content on property market, stock market, exchange rate, and multiple other sectors of the economy, which will also help you to shape up your business decisions at the same time. So, consider becoming an Advocata insider and advocat and endorse for policies that is required for Sri Lanka for Sri Lanka to move to the next stage. charindra chandrasena 54:35 Right. So, with that, we'll wind up. Thank you, Dana, as always, and Riyadh, as always. We will see you next week. As always, send us your suggestions, criticisms, comments, and feedback. We'll take it all in stride and try to cater as much as possible to them. Thank you for tuning in. Transcribed by https://otter.ai