Speaker 1 00:11 Hi everyone! Welcome back to Advocata Studio. Today we have with us a distinguished guest, mr. Damik Rannatungo, who is the Commissioner General of the agrarian development department, and we'll be talking about a lot of important issues in the paddy sector, specifically with mr. Anantunga. mrs. Ranthunga, thank you for joining us, well, and welcome to the studio. Speaker 2 00:34 Thank you. Speaker 1 00:34 To start off with, for our viewers who may not necessarily be aware of the the role that the Department of Agrarian Development plays in paddy agriculture. Would you please give us a brief overview of the different duties and responsibilities that are performed and executed by the department? Speaker 2 00:55 Okay, thank you for this opportunity. Actually, the Department of Agrarian Development is mainly there to provide agrarian services. Agrarian services means what farmers need to cultivate their lands, so we provide them necessary inputs like fertilise lands, then water management and all other necessary inputs, and also we handle the agrarian law because there is this agrarian development act. There are various provisions to protect the rights of cultivators, rights of farmers, rights of tenant farmers, rights of landowners. So we are handling that agrarian law by our department to do all these things. We have 25 district officers in all 25 districts, and in addition to that, we have 566 agrarian service centres throughout the country. There are about 13,000 officers attached to our department. Speaker 1 02:13 When you talk about enforcing the the agrarian law, you mentioned a few key pieces of that. Can you explain to our audience why these laws are in place in terms of, say, farmers' rights and tenants' rights, and what the intention behind this agrarian act is, briefly? Speaker 2 02:37 Yeah, I think main intention Of agrarian development act is to facilitate agrarian activities, so to cultivate all possible lands for the benefit of the country to increase the national food production. So we have to maintain land registrars. We we we have to maintain the pediland registry and highland registry in every agrarian service division. They are the farmers have the right to own their lands, cultivate their lands, get necessary inputs from service providers get necessary services from the government. All these rights are well established by the act. There are provisions in the act to give their rights as so. For example, there are tenant farmers. So the owner also cannot arbitrarily remove tenant farmers from the lands. There are tenant rights in that, and also there are rights for the landowners. The tenant farmers also cannot have their own decisions. The the the landowners also have their own rights to interfere. So this kind of provisions are in the act to ensure the rights of all farmers, cultivators, and at the same time there are many other laws, like for example the laws related to agrarian lands, laws related to the agricultural societies, agrarian community organisations. There are laws related to water management. There are so many, so many provisions in that to ensure the productive cultivation of our lands. Yeah. Speaker 1 04:46 Yes, mr. Anthony, we will be discussing each of these different responsibilities of the agrarian development department in more detail. But before we get to that, I wanted to bring up an important topic of. These days, which is the fact that these days it is the harvesting season of the yellow season, and farmers don't seem to be happy about the prices that they are getting. Could you explain why this is the case and what can maybe done to fix this? Although it is not directly under your purview. I think it's an important aspect to talk about as well. Speaker 2 05:26 Yes, I think this is an important aspect because finally the farmers how to sell their products. That is how they and they are living. So that that is a very important aspect of everything. If they do not get a profit, they if do do not get a sufficient income, they will not be involved in plantifarming in the future. So that's a very important aspect. But at the same time, we have to see why farmers face such situation. Now the government has declared a certified price for paddy, and paddy marketing board, the government organisation, which is purchasing paddy at this certified price, but they will purchase only the quality paddy. There should be certain conditions; otherwise, they will not buy. So, problem is most of the farmers cannot meet these conditions. For example, moisture percentage should be less than 14% but the people do not have facilities to drive their product and and be aligned with those conditions. That is one problem they face, and so that's why now government is planning to interfere by establishing dryers, community dryers, and also there should be community warehouses. Now people have no facilities to store their products; they have to sell the products just after harvesting, and then the the millers and buyers can dominate. That is the current issue, but at the same time, now some farmers say the current set fried price is not sufficient. But I don't think that that is the majority opinion because there are so many people who are happy with the price and who sell their products to the petty marketing board, but the the this certified price is also decided by a committee. There are experts who have done research on these things, and there's a method of scientific calculation. They have to only they decide these prices, but I think the main problem is farmers do not have the capacity to meet the standard. That's why they have to sell their products for a lower price. Yeah, Speaker 1 08:16 that's actually I think an important point that you raised because you talked about the the certified price, but as a free market think tank, Advocata Institute has always raised our concerns about this kind of, you know, minimum prices being established in the market because, like we can see in this case, also they're very difficult to enforce, right? But I think what is important that is that we understand theoretically why this kind of thing happens. What we have realised through our own research is that you know what's happening end of the day every harvesting season is that you know, let's take the yellow season. The harvesting happens say July August, right? And then all of this harvest enters the market at the same time. So there's all of a sudden, then all of a sudden, it duration of the market with the harvest from all over the country, and therefore it depresses petty prices. Right? This is simple supply and demand economics, right? Which means that in order to actually, you know, give a lasting solution to this issue, what we need do is to think about how we can improve the bargaining power of the the farmers against you know these millers and other buyers in this case, right? So one thing that you brought up is that they don't have drying facilities, so they can't keep the paddy for long. And the other thing that you brought up is that they also don't have the storage facilities, right? So if we can in some way design these infrastructures for the farmers. I think it would go a long way in allowing the farmers to be more strategic about when and how to sell these these harvests to millers, and then that would help them secure more better and improved prices. But before we further get into what different techniques can be used to ensure this, I also wanted to kind of go back to one of the important points that you raised earlier, which is that the Department of Agrarian Development actually is the institution that starts with maintaining the the paddy the registries of Sri Lanka, right? That means that the department plays an important role in the data collection aspect of this of this industry. Can you talk a little bit about how this data is collected at you know grassroots level working with farmers? Speaker 2 10:33 Yeah, actually now we have a digital database. Our department has a digital database. We have mapped almost all the petty lands in Sri Lanka, and we we have geogovia database where all these data stored, and so therefore we we can find any information about petty lands from our database, that is how we also manage our fertiliser subsidy system, because when a person makes an application for a subsidy, we can find all the details of the land, where it is located, what is the land size, or all the details are available with us, but we collect this data through our grassroot level officers. We have our agricultural research and production assistants all over the country. We have 10,400 divisions, APRO divisions. But at the moment, we only have about 6000 officers. We we have to recruit more officers in the future. But they are the people who collect this information directly from the farmers. But what they have to do after the start of every season, they they can collect the latest information. Whether people have started cultivation, then what are the varieties they have grown? That kind of information has to be fed into the existing system. Speaker 1 12:24 Yeah. Speaker 2 12:25 So that is how we collect basic data from the field. Speaker 1 12:31 And to clarify, you also collect information on every season, what kind of variety is cultivated by each farm and all of that data, right? Yes. Speaker 2 12:38 Yes. Speaker 1 12:39 Yes. And I was also interested in understanding how the department actually works with farmers to you know help farmers decide which varieties to cultivate this season. My understanding is that the farmers generally go by say the prices in the previous season. Say some of us fetching high prices, they would be more inclined to cultivate it. But also you have to work with the ground realities, right? Some areas of the country are not suitable for the cultivation of kilisamba, but then you know, in areas where it's more suitable to cultivate kilisamba, there may be more inclination to cultivate kilisamba. In the previous season, you got a good price for it, right? How does the department help farmers make these decisions? And for that, I also assume you need a lot of data on consumption patterns, right? And where does that data come from? Where does the department get a sense of what the consumption patterns are to help the department also then go and help the farmers make these decisions? Speaker 2 13:35 Yeah, we know that what is the demand for various price varieties, and we always try to have a balance between these varieties, as you rightly said. There are locations where we can productively grow some varieties, but some varieties are not suitable for such areas. So what we do is now these crucial decisions are taken at the seasonal cultivation meetings. Before every season, we organise a meeting that is attended by all relevant stakeholders in the area. They decide what what variety is to grow, what is the water releasing date, what they they are going to start cultivation, that kind of decisions are taken at this seasonal cultivation meeting. The we also as a as a relon department, our officers also attend these meetings and facilitate for the decision-making process, but basically these decisions are collective decisions, not not imposed on farmers by government agencies, but all stakeholders, especially farm organisations involved in taking. Yes, Speaker 1 15:02 Miss Ranthunga. It's very clear from what you said that the Department of Agrarians Development is very substantially involved in you know helping farmers with deciding how and what to cultivate. But for that, you need correct data on consumption patterns in the country from the research that we have done, what we've realised is that consumption trends, the data on it is quite difficult to combine in terms of you know data that's collected by the government. The best data we found was through retailers, but then also it depends on what kind of retailer you are, right? It's easy to get data from the supermarkets, but supermarkets only cater to a particular segment of society. It does not reflect the reality across all different groups of populations, right? And the most recent consumption data that we are aware that the government has is the the Income and Expenditure Survey that was collected in 2019. Is the data not a little outdated, or how are you dealing with this data issue? Speaker 2 16:08 Yeah, consumption data actually. We we also got consumption data from the Department of Census and Statistics because there is a National Committee on Food Security. Then all these departments represent the Food Security Committee that that that is in the depart that is in the presidential secret area. So we basically rely on those data provided by the Census Department, but I think at the moment there is no big issue about consumption data because we know that we we have a shortage of certain varieties, and that is right. And sometimes we have a oversupply of certain varieties. That is also correct according to market information. Then, when when there is a shortage, sometimes government needs to take decisions to import such varieties. That happens in last two years because there is a shortage of kirisamba in the country. Then government had to import certain amount of similar varieties. Actually, kirisamba is a unique species. We we we don't find kirisamba in any other country, but the government had to import an alternative variety to meet the demand for Kiri Samba, then. But I think the consumption data, which is available right now, is enough to take crucial decisions. But as you said, we have to improve the situation because some of the data can be outdated. Speaker 1 18:00 Yes, and I think there's a new income and expenditure survey coming out that's supposed to come out end of this year, which would help us update this data. But I think one thing that we can all agree on is that this kind of data collection needs to be more frequent than it is done right now, right, mr. Anthonga? Based on the field research that we have done, particularly in the north and the east, one of the biggest complaints that we have heard from farmers in terms of the services provided by the government is the the shortage of agricultural extension officers. And I understand that this is an issue that's common across the country as well, and it's understandable because it's also difficult to recruit for these positions more and more because people in general are not interested in agriculture. So this also pertains to these extension roles as well. Given this situation, is it actually time that we switch to models like digital advisory services, employing private agronomists and also exploiting input dealer networks to to educate farmers, then solely relying on government extension officers to bridge this knowledge gap that exists between the government departments and the farmers. Speaker 2 19:19 Yes, I think you are correct because we have to go for a mixed strategy. We cannot totally rely on government extension officers, and we have to go for new technologies. We have to use digital tools to make farmers away on these new innovations. But at the same time, we must maintain basic cadre of extension officers as well, because there services are required even to even to employ some new strategies. We need people in our organisations. Therefore, there is a need to. Put more officers to serve in agricultural extension work, and at the same time, as you said, this problem is more severe in northern and eastern parts of the country because there is a scarcity of Tamil-speaking qualified officers. That is also another identified problem, but government has invested heavily on northern and eastern parts of the country for infrastructure development and recruitment of new officers also takes place. So I think in time to come, we will be able to gradually sort out these problems, but there are not no overnight solutions for these kind of problems. Speaker 1 20:49 Yeah, I understand these problems there, but what from what you said, the government has heavily invested over the years in you know providing these services to these farmers, but the question remains, mr. Rannatungo, whether we are actually seeing a good return on these investments. Right? For instance, if you look at the numbers, the yields have, for the most part, remained stagnant for say the last 20 years. Is there a reason why we've not been able to see substantial improvements in our petty yields, what what are the main factors that affect this, in your opinion? Speaker 2 21:26 Yes, that's a pertinent question. But I think before coming to a conclusion, we have to look at this issue very closely and analyse the situation. I think this, yeah. What you are saying is correct. Our average yield has been stagnant over last several years. There are small changes, but largely stagnant. The but this this situation is driven by a combination of reasons. For example, now we have to look at the conditions of our paediatrics, right? Fertility of paediatrics, the moisture condition, water availability-all these things matter. In addition to that, we have to look at the crop management practices because we, in our country, we have very small pedilands, fragmented lands. So it is difficult to employ all good practices in small lands. There are research. There are new findings. But are we able to apply all these things in small fragmented lands? That is another problem. So management problems are there. The land problems are there. In addition to that, there are various other reasons like climatic situations because paddy is grown all over the country. All 25 districts we have paddy, but due to these diversities, sometimes there is a drought in one area, there is a flood in another area. There are pest outbreaks, disease outbreaks. So we have to continue our cultivation, facing all these challenges. That is another problem. And in addition to that, there are maybe biological limitations as well. So now, now we have been using these improved varieties for many, many years, and plant breeder would explain better than I do. But there may be genetical ceilings as well in those varieties. So we have to continuously improve. So therefore, I think the maintaining the given all these challenges, maintaining the status quo is also an achievement, because we have to put lot of effort to continue this situation, and we have to continue the situation because rice is our staple food. For food security, rice is very important. Therefore, we have to battle it out, but that doesn't mean that we are pessimistic on this. Yeah, right. We can improve the situation. The researchers, scientists have shown a way of hold. So we we we have to move forward with those scientific Recommendations to see an improvement. Speaker 1 24:44 Yes, mr. Damika, thank you for raising those important points about the different factors that affect productivity, and I want to actually go through each and every one of those with you to understand better what the you know constraints to productivity in the paddy lands is Sri Lanka. And I want to start with the suitability of land for the cultivation of paddy. Actually, my understanding of the agrarian development law is that it says that any land in Sri Lanka that is suitable for the cultivation of paddy shall mandatorily be cultivated in paddy, and that's why you have these agrarian development officers going and enforcing this in terms of paddy lands of Sri Lanka, right? But I wanted to understand in more detail what criteria the Department of Agrarian Development uses to identify which lands are actually suitable for the cultivation of paddy. That then, in order to lock all of this land down into paddy cultivation. Speaker 2 25:45 Yes, actually, now these provisions are they are to protect the pedilands, existing pedilands. I don't think anybody is going to have new pedilands in Sri Lanka. So, the but we have to protect existing paddy lands which are cultivatable and which can be efficiently used for paddy cultivation. Speaker 2 26:12 That is the point. So for this, when person tries to abandon petty land or try to use it for any other purpose. The person has to get the permission from our department. Otherwise, it is an illegal activity because nobody can use paddy land for any other purpose without the permission of the Department of Agrarian Development. Then, in deciding whether it is a suitable paddy land or not, we have to follow certain procedures. First thing is we get the observation of relevant technical officers in the area. They are agricultural instructors and other officers related to agriculture, so they go and see the land and decide whether this is a suitable pediland or not. Speaker 1 27:13 And is that based on soil testing? Soil Speaker 2 27:16 testing, observation, and Sometimes observation on the neighbouring pedilands, that kind of methods are used. Speaker 1 27:28 Yeah. So what I'm gathering is it's more of a subjective evaluation also. Yes, Speaker 2 27:33 and in addition to that, we have our technical officers. They will also look at various technical aspects, like with the this irrigated land, the water availabilities, they are that kind of facts are also looked at by technical officers. Then, then if they decide that this is a suitable land for paddy cultivation and this is efficient, this can be efficiently used for paddy cultivation, then we do not permit them to use it for any other purpose. Speaker 1 28:06 Yeah. So to clarify, you basically the suitability argument is based on whether it has historically been cultivated in paddy, as opposed to you going into new plots and suddenly declaring, or this is suitable for the cultivation of paddy, so you should not have this house here, but institute paddy lands. That's not how the law is enforced. Speaker 2 28:24 Yes, yes, yes, yes. We do not go to a highland and say this is good for paddy cultivation, and you have to grow paddy here. We we do not go up to that text line, right? But what we are trying is to protect protect existing paddy lands. Understood, Speaker 1 28:43 understood. But mr. Anthonga, there's also a lot of complaints about this as well, particularly from people who own paddy lands, say in the western province or in the wet zone, where the cost of production is generally thought to be very high, but the yields are considered to be comparatively lower, where people don't actually make a lot of profits from engaging in paddy agriculture, who would rather use the land for other purposes, and they say there there are better ways in which more productive ways in which this land can be used. What is your response to these kinds of complaints. Speaker 2 29:22 Yeah, there is some truth in that argument when you only look at economic aspects of it, right? But we have to understand that paddy land is not only a pediland; Speaker 1 29:38 it Speaker 2 29:38 is a part of the ecosystem, right? Now, if we allow those petty lands to be filled without any hesitation, only considering the economic benefits, then there will be other adverse consequences. For example, now the people also complain that. Filling of fatty lands is a major cause of flooding in the western province, so we have to consider those aspects as well. But now we have established a very transparent mechanism. Anybody can apply to use their lands for any other purposes, but then if they can get the recommendations from all relevant parties, and relevant parties ensure that this will not adversely affect the ecosystem, this will not adversely affect the other paddy cultivations in the area. This will not adversely affect the water flow. Then we can allow them to use these lands for other purposes. That happens actually now. People come to build houses, then come to do other cultivations. Some people have started perennial cultivations, coconut cultivation, cinnamon cultivation. We can allow these things because we we also know that this the cultivation of paddies not very economical in the wet zone. Speaker 1 31:25 Yeah. Speaker 2 31:25 So, but we can allow other users on condition that these things will not damage the ecosystem. Speaker 1 31:37 Ah, but is there any consideration on the part of the government to actually write this into a law, you know, to officially relax these restrictions, the land use restrictions on these petty lands. Speaker 2 31:50 I think provisions are already available in that. The commissioner general has the authority to decide whether this land is a petty land or not, right? That that provisions are already there. We are using those provisions to allow some people to to use these lands for their purposes. But only thing is there is a complex procedure. We cannot just allow them to use them for their purposes. They have to follow the procedure. They have to apply. They have to go through all the process. And if all the recommendations are there, then finally we can allow them to use these lands for their purposes. Yeah, Speaker 1 32:39 and also the gradient. law, my understanding, says that the the Department of Agrarian Development has the right to reassign an uncultivated or abandoned paddy land for someone else, and I'm assuming this law also comes from you know is built on the foundation of food security, right? Does the the Department of Agrarian Development actually enforce it in this way? How prevalent is the actual enforcement of this? Speaker 2 33:13 Yes, in in major paddy cultivating areas, this frequently happens because some people, due to various reasons, cannot cultivate their lands, then there are people who are willing to cultivate such lands. So then, the our departments has to take that decision first. We will issue warnings. We want the owners to cultivate those lands. But if they are not doing that, then we we get those lands and give them to suitable persons on temporary basis. We we do not transfer the Ownership, ownership will be there with the same owner, but we we grant the permission for another person to cultivate those lands and the the contribute to the production of the country. Speaker 1 34:20 Yes, like I said, all of these laws are basically in place to ensure the government's goal of self-sufficiency in rice cultivation. Right? I mean, self-sufficiency. I guess the argument for it that is rice is the staple crop, so it's important for food security that we're able to provide the rice from within our domestic sources, right? Why exactly can't we depend on trade, international trade, to fulfil our demand? Why does it have to be cultivated domestically? Can you shed some light on that? Speaker 2 34:57 Yes, that's a good question, but. As you rightly said, this is our staple food, and if we consider the food security aspects, this is very important for food security, and we have to cultivate as much as possible within the country, and that is what we are doing right now. But the your question is: Can't we rely on international trade? Can't we import substantial stocks from other countries for local consumption? I think that that is not an easy option. There are local issues and international issues as well. Locally, the rice farming is the main livelihood of so many people. We have about 1.8 million farmer families involved in rice farming, so that is their major livelihood. Speaker 1 36:01 Where does this 1.8 8 million number come from? Is it based on the cultivation data that the yes Speaker 2 36:07 cultivation data? Okay, and in addition to that, the as I said, the paddy land is not only a pediland; it's a part of the ecosystem. So there is an environmental significance of maintaining paediatrics that is also there. Then food security aspects; those things are also there. In addition to that, if we look at this problem from international perspective, we find that less than 10% of the global rice production is traded internationally. Most of the countries produce for their own consumption. Even major exporters like China, Thailand, they frequently stop exports due to their domestic issues. So we cannot heavily rely on international markets. Therefore, we have to produce our products locally. In addition to that, the rice we eat in Sri Lanka is unique to us. That is another fact. Most of the East Asian countries they they have this sticky rice, which is not the our choice. So that those those aspects are also important. Therefore, I think we have to produce our rice requirement locally. Speaker 1 37:41 Yeah, this is actually a very important point for our audience as well. The idea that self-sufficiency is important has may have some merit based on the fact that only a small portion of the international rice cultivation is actually traded because a lot of the countries that produce rice, they themselves domestically consume it at large in large quantities because it's their staple crop as well. And more often than not, the different varieties that are eaten in different countries are different. Like in Sri Lanka, you have the sambars and the nardus. In India, they have different varieties. Pakistan, it's more the long grain, and if you look at Southeast Asia and East Asia, it's more that just mean rises. The stick rises, so there is also not a lot of trade that can happen given these preferences as well. And I also wanted to ask you something about fertiliser, which is also an important aspect of productivity. One important development that has happened over the past decade or so is the switch from a point of sale subsidy into a cash transfer. Right, and what that meant was that before this change happened? The farmers were able to purchase fertiliser at a very low price because of the subsidy that was built into the price. But now, instead of giving them this point of purchase subsidy, the farmers are actually given a cash transfer. So when they purchase the fertiliser, and correct me if I'm wrong, mr. Anthunga. They would be paying the full market price, and then to make sure that farmers don't find this unaffordable, they are given the cash transfer. What was the reason for making this switch, and how has that changed the farmers' behaviours when it comes to fertilise application, Speaker 2 39:42 yeah, I think this cash transfer system was introduced because it is easy for both parties. The government has to the grant, the subsidy. It is directly sent to the bank bank. Of the farmer, and the farmers also now get the money, and they can purchase from a place they want the brand they want. There is no restriction. Then that is easy for both parties, and I think there are some good responses from farmers as well. They like this cash grant system. The only only concern one may arise is that whether farmers will use this subsidy for other purpose without applying fertiliser. But I think in paddy cultivation there is no chance to happen it because all the we we have experienced farmers they know that without applying fertiliser they cannot get the expected yield and therefore they somehow even we give the subsidy or not, they apply fertiliser. Therefore, there is no opportunity to misuse the funds as well. So I think this is good for both parties. Speaker 1 41:11 Yeah, yeah. And putting an economist set on the way I think about it is right. The way I think about it is that before this cash transfer was introduced, there might have been some incentive for overuse of fertiliser because they were getting the fertiliser very cheap. But now, while they get this cash transfer, they have to pay market prices, right? And if at all they get to save something, if they don't actually, you know, use beyond what's actually required, right? And because of that, it would also probably have reduced overuse of fertiliser among farmers, and also would have encouraged farmers to think about non-traditional forms of fertiliser, right? Improved fertiliser varieties, or say drawn fertilisation and stuff like that. Is that what you've actually noticed on the ground? Speaker 2 41:57 Yes, people use various plants, new new fertiliser types that is happening in the ground. So that's why I said this is acceptable to both parties. Government is giving the subsidy, but we do not impose any restrictions on the farmers to employ their own methods. Speaker 1 42:23 Yeah, yeah. Talking of fertiliser, mr. Nantunga, one question that I can't not ask you is what's going on with fertiliser these days with the geopolitical tensions in the Middle East, right? From some farmers that we have spoken to, there was a complaint that fertiliser has been in short supply, and when we speak to distributors and so on, what they say is the price has gone up, and because of that, farmers are in some cases just willing to buy fertiliser. But also there is some concern whether fertiliser is actually being imported in you know the quantities that we need, both because prices have gone up and the suppliers are not sure whether they'll be able to sell it, and there's also there also seems to be a worry that the government will be trying to control the price of fertiliser, which would make the the fertiliser suppliers lose out if they were to pay high prices to bring in this fertiliser and then were forced to sell it at a lower price, how do you, as the Department of Agrarian Services or Development, see this problem, and what what can be done to ensure that at least in the next season, fertilises efficiently and effectively provided to the farmers who need Speaker 2 43:39 it? Yes, actually now the distribution of fertiliser is not our business. There are enough private sector agencies to do that job, but at the beginning of the other season, there was a problem because because of this Middle East crisis, the international prices of fertiliser went up. Then government had to intervene because there were attempts to the the stock fertiliser. There were attempts to increase the price of fertiliser. Then government had to intervene. Government decided that fertiliser for fatty farmers would be only distributed through the agrarian service centres. Then we were asked to get the fertiliser from major suppliers and distribute them through our centres. Then. Then the National Fertiliser Secretariat decided they they they had consultations with all the fertiliser companies. Then they decided that every. Company should provide this amount of fertiliser to agrarian development department for fatty farming. Speaker 1 45:08 Yeah. Speaker 2 45:09 Then in that way, at the first phase, we got 48,000 metric tonnes from major fertiliser companies in the country. Then we distributed that amount, but then again in the middle of the season, some companies imported fertiliser, but at a different price. At a different price. Earlier we decided to give urea fertiliser 50 kilogramme bag per 10,200 rupees per bag, right? But then companies agreed to provide that fertiliser 9500. Then to cover the transportation cost and other expenses. We we had that gap between 9000 5000 to 210 110,200. But at the next pace, the company prices went up. Then government decided to provide the balance from the government funds, so government continued to provide fertiliser at the same rate throughout the season, but balance so paid by the government. That's how we provided fertiliser to all faddy farmers in the Yala season at a consistent price. Now I think we have already finished the other season, and now there is no major complaint from farmers or anybody, because I think we could distribute fertiliser, not 100% to their satisfaction, but we we could meet the requirement demand from the farmers. We provided more than 65,000 metric tonnes last year yellow season. We have not not the whole country has used about 75,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser. So, but last yellow season our cultivation was more than this yellow season. Therefore, I think the there was no major problem in distribution of fertiliser during the yellow season. Yeah. But I do not think we should continue this process because they are raw market forces. They have to do this job because of the special circumstances that government had to intervene. But I think from the next season, the private sector can do this job. But now the the recent news is that the international market price has gone down. Now now international fertiliser prices have gone down. So therefore, I don't think in the Mahathir there will be a big issue. Now most of the companies have already ordered fertiliser at the existing price. Yeah. So if they bring in at the existing price, there won't be a big issue in distribution of fertiliser. Speaker 1 48:28 Yeah. One complaint that we actually heard from private players in the fertiliser market is that government intervention made this the shortages worse because what they said was that by acquiring the stocks that they had and trying to distribute it through the agrarian services centres, that you know the government was not able to reach some farmers that you know their private distribution networks have been able to easily reach. Do you agree with this statement? Speaker 2 48:57 Yeah, there are maybe some truth in that statement because there are 1000s of private dealers, but we we have only 566 agrarian service centres. The people also had some difficulties in reaching those centres and getting the fertiliser, but this special situation compelled us to do so. Yeah, this is not a normal situation. But if the government did not do that, definitely pricer pricer should go up up to 20,000 rupees per 50 kilogramme pack. Speaker 1 49:37 Yeah, understood. Miss Ranta, I also want to talk a little bit about tenants' rights because that's also a big part of the mandate of the agricultural, rather the agrarian development law, specifically about provisions in the the agrarian development law that allows tenants to have lifetime tenancy and. Also, the kind of rent control that happens through the act right mandates-you know how much of a share of the harvest that is to be paid by the tenant to the landlord, right? And people who have analysed this have said that this provides a major disincentive for productivity within the paddy market by first of all, taking the market away from the picture because there's not going to be an incentive, for instance, for the tenant to to you know improve productivity and for the landlord to come in and encourage tenant to improve productivity because there's no fear of being let go. At the same time, in terms of, you know, mandating rent payments again, in terms of the the rent payments, the market structures have been taken away, and people argue that this directly depresses productivity within the sector. In light of these criticisms, do you think it's time to rethink the whole tenancy model that we have in Sri Lanka, because it also, if you think about it, prevents the consolidation of land. Say, if someone wants to acquire land, but one plot is basically being cultivated by a tenant, they will have to buy the land with the tenant, and that might discourage some people from acquiring and consolidating land as well. So, what do you think about this? Speaker 2 51:22 Yes, these are actually traditional laws, which are they are to protect tenant farmers, because tenants were considered to be people who need some kind of protection from the government laws, that's why the act has introduced some provisions to protect the rights of tenants. But if we look at these things economically, there may be some problems. But at the same time, we have to think about the livelihood of people whose only resource, only property they have is this land, right? Now, in such a situation, we we have to look at these things on some other humanitarian angles as well, so that's why these laws continue. Anyway, there are provisions in that itself. Owner wants to get back the land. There are provisions. Then, then if the owner wants to sell the land to a third party. There are provisions. First, they should give the option to the tenant to buy the land. But if tenant is not willing to buy the land, then the owner can transfer the land to a third party. Yeah. So those provisions are also there. And next important thing is the our act does not produce tenants after year 2000. Now now we don't have tenants. These are people who come from all these tenants, existing tenants are people and their family members whose rights were given from Elliot, right? No, now that this President Act also protects their rights, but it Speaker 1 53:39 doesn't give new rights to new people. Speaker 2 53:40 New rights to new people. Yes. Speaker 1 53:42 To clarify, does it then include, say, the next generations of already recognised tenants? Would they still have a right to that land? Yes. Speaker 2 53:49 Yes. That is there because the the existing tenants can give their rights to the in exchange. Yeah. That is there. Speaker 1 54:01 Okay, one of the reasons I asked this question was also because the countries that inspired this law in Sri Lanka, like the United Kingdom, has already moved away from these laws, and even you know intergenerational protections that had been given under tenancy laws have been taken away, and studies have shown that productivity has improved as a result, but in terms of productivity, I also want to, in the interest of time, bring your attention to the question of the fragmentation of petty lands, and these are issues that go in go hand in hand, right? My understanding is the gradient development law also prevents the subdivision of lands to a great extent, but what has been found in the Sri Lankan context is because the subdivisions are not permitted. What has happened is that there are a lot of informal subdivisions where you know officially they have not actually partitioned the land, going through the legal process. But if two siblings inherit the land from far. They would, without officially subdividing it, you know, informally divide land between themselves, and that also is a form of fragmentation that the law doesn't protect against. And this topic of fragmentation is important because that's directly related to productivity, right? When the land size is so small, it's difficult to Say be benefited by economies of scale of production, for instance, that drives you know the cost of production up, and then the consumers are also going to feel the burden of that in terms of higher consumer prices as well. So my question to you is, mr. Antongo, what is the department actually doing to address this, you know, fragmentation of lands question beyond these provisions that are written into the law to prevent subdivisions, which doesn't, as I said, prevent informal subdivisions anyway. Is there any measure that's being considered to actively encourage consolidation of these fragmented petty lands. Speaker 2 56:04 Yes, that is another important question because we know fragmentation limits the productivity because we cannot introduce new technologies. We cannot use machines. There are a lot of restrictions, but also there are challenges to limit fragmentation. There are social barriers. There are legal barriers. So what we are doing right right now is the functional consolidation, right? The may have heard about the YAI programme introduced by the Department of Agriculture, where people in the neighbouring pedilands make a collective effort to develop these lands as one tract, for example, now they they get together. They decide what varieties to grow. They use same kind of agricultural practices. They use machinery together. They they they they use the advanced technologies together, so this is a kind of functional consolidation. Ownership is with multiple people, Speaker 1 57:30 yeah, Speaker 2 57:30 but they work together. Yeah, that that is one alternative for fragmentation, yeah, and that that's a very good alternative for fragmentation. Second measure we take is to strengthen farm organisations. Yeah, that is another way because then farmers in the farm organisation can take collective decisions. They also can work as one unit. Speaker 1 58:00 Yeah, Speaker 2 58:01 that also helps to solve this issue. Speaker 1 58:05 Yeah, in terms of farm organisations, mr. Rannatunga actually wanted to ask you this question as well, because not not in just not just in terms of productivity, but also in terms of access to credit. You know, the coordination of cultivation activities and risk pooling between the the farmers and of course the economies of scale that you're going to get by consolidating your land functionally, right? But one of the things that I've noticed is through my research is that farmer organisations in Sri Lanka are not as strong as they are in some other parts of the world. For instance, India and you know some farmer organisations in, say, Malaysia and Southeast Asian countries, right? What is the reason for the institutional weakness of these farm organisations in Sri Lanka, and what can be done to strengthen them to be able to derive the benefits of this kind of consolidation? Yes, Speaker 2 59:00 I think that's a very important aspect of agriculture in Sri Lanka because we have a lot of farm organisations, but only some organisations play an active role. Most of the farm organisations are inactive; they just come and have a meeting and talk something and leave, but but they do not actively involve in decision making process. But they are a farm organisation with good leadership who involve in decision making process. As I said in an answer to earlier question, we have these seasonal meetings. Some farm farm organisations play an important role in those meetings. Speaker 1 59:51 Yeah, Speaker 2 59:51 but I accept the fact that our farm organisations are not strong enough. As in the case of India or Malaysia, our farm organisations have to go a long way to achieve that kind of success. Anyway, our act has provisions to register farm organisations, and also there are provisions to have district federations and national federation. Those federations are already existing, but problem is whether they are strong enough. So I think the government has to provide various facilities to these farm organisations to strengthen themselves, like credit facilities, business models. Then, if they play a strong role, active role, it will be easy for the government as well. Then they they can even they can involve in extension works as well. Speaker 1 1:01:02 Yeah, Speaker 2 1:01:02 in some areas, actually they do extension works as well. Speaker 1 1:01:06 Yeah. Yes, but isn't a more feasible way to bring in this kind of functional consolidation into our paddy agriculture to actually promote agribusiness models? I understand that in Sri Lanka, that the prevalence of agribusinesses is lower compared to other countries because of the entrenched land and labour issues. You have, for instance, when it comes to paddy cultivation, a lot of these farmers that cultivate under permits don't have deeds or titles to their land, which then prevents these you know agribusiness companies from you know acquiring and consolidating these lands, right? And other countries, what you see is when they acquire this kind of land, then they can use farmers as either outgrowers or as you know agricultural workers, and the farmers have been shown to be able to earn greater incomes through the you know increased productivity benefits and stuff like that. In addition to say the the lease income that may they may get through the you know the the rental model that they may have entered into with these ag businesses, what is actually being done to encourage more agribusinesses to come and set up in Sri Lanka, and my second question is, mr. Anthunger, are we ready to also allow foreign companies to come and acquire these lands for these agribusiness purposes? Given that they may be more, they may be bringing in, you know, in terms of the know-how and the research and development, a lot of knowledge that could actually be beneficial for the sustenance of the paddy industry of Sri Lanka. Speaker 2 1:02:44 Yeah, actually, now there are some local companies who enrol in farmers in outdoor models, and there are some specific cultivations they have selected to work with farmers. These things are slowly happening, but I I don't say that the these things are widespread and very active, but these things have already started to happen. That's a good sign, and I think in the future there will be more business models with the involvement of farmers, but with regard to the possibility of foreign companies to come and do business here, of course that has to be looked at with the existing legal framework. So you have to look at BUI laws and other restrictions for investment in Sri Lanka by foreign companies, but I think there are some companies who involved in agriculture, fisheries, and such ventures. But the the that that our department has a very small role there, but I think major role has to be played by other agencies like BOI and the Ministry of Industries and so forth. Speaker 1 1:04:16 Yeah, yeah, and I also want to briefly ask you about the water issues, because the Department of Agrarian Development is also in charge of administrating the minor irrigation systems of Sri Lanka, and there are substantial costs involved with the operation of manage operation, management, and maintenance of these minor irrigation tanks, for which the department might not have sufficient money, so one of the proposals that have been put forward for a long time is the idea of water accounting, basically charging farmers with the water they use. On one hand, it would help cover some of these operational and many. And maintenance expenses that the department has with respect to these irrigation infrastructures, and on the other hand, it will also encourage responsible water use among farmers. Especially important given the the increased climate vulnerabilities that Sri Lanka is expected to face as a result of climate change, which will result in greater episodes of water scarcity in Sri Lanka, is this something that's actually being actively considered within the department, or what are the constraints that are in place to that are in place that stopping the department from going forward with something like this. Speaker 2 1:05:44 I think at the moment there is no any proposal to charge forward or any such development. I think that's that's a political decision the government has to take because we have to look at the social aspects as well, and we know farmers will not like that kind of idea. Then that we we have to develop a kind of collaborative approach and show the benefits and all these things. So, but what I can say is, at the moment, there is no any proposal for such a system. Speaker 1 1:06:27 Yeah, actually, when you say that farmers will not like that idea, I don't know if I agree because from the survey data I've seen, based on a few research articles that have been published on this topic, farmers at the tail end of the irrigation network, right, are more likely to be in favour of this, and that's I think 95% I saw in one research study, it was done in a particular location in the Badula district. 95% of the farmers in the tail end were favourable, had favourable view of water tariffs for irrigation water, right? That's because when the water is released, the farmers at the head end basically overuse the water, waste it, and the farmers at the tail end don't receive much water, right? So they understand why it's important to put in place a mechanism like this to encourage more responsible water use, so that water can be more equitably distributed, and the other thing I think that's important to emphasise here, mr. Anthony, is that there's this argument that's presented that you know water counting is actually goes against the irrigation principles that have been held dear in this country historically, because you know if you look at historically the kings who like you know constructed these water tanks, these major irrigation tanks, for example, they gave the water to the the you know the people for free. So putting a price on that would then you know make the country kind of turn its back on this you know heritage of you know irrigation that it has, right? But one thing that's also important to emphasise is that the although those farmers may not have paid for this water with actual money, there was something called the Rajakaria system in place. You know, which requires mandatory required rather mandatory service in terms of you know maintenance activities, right? Which doesn't happen anymore because the Rajkadi system was abolished in the 1800s itself, and because of that, this kind of maintenance work that was done historically through mandatory forced labour doesn't happen anymore. Which means that the build of that also has to be footed by you know irrigation irrigation administrators like the Department of Agrarian Development as well, right? But in terms of climate change and these effects, it's important to talk about these topics. Or one last question I have for you is the the the projected effect of the El Nino, with you know the the El Nino effects projected to be felt by Sri Lanka starting, I believe, in September, October, going up to April next year. What's projected is that we'll have a period of high and intense rainfall until December, and then a period of drought. How exactly is the the paddy sector prepared for to basically weather these the effects of the El Nino on Sri Lanka's paddy agriculture. Speaker 2 1:09:31 Now, actually, now government has appointed a task force to look into the El Nino impact and propose solutions and propose an action plan, strategic action plan to face the El Nino effect. This task force has already been appointed, and they are already working on that. They have already. Given some directives to government organisations, and they will finally give some short-term, medium-term, and long-term proposals to implement. At the moment, as a department, we are working according to the directives given by this task force, and we have already started few things. For example, we have already started farm awareness programmes, especially on the the preservation of water and the the protection of water in our small tanks and anikats and also we have started training of our officers, the the especially the technical officers who will work with the community community on those aspects that that is already started, and there may be some changes in the crop calendar. We might start the season bit earlier than usual period, and that kind of changes may happen. But all these things will be done according to the directives of the task force appointed by the government, Speaker 1 1:11:24 have any directives been issued already? Speaker 2 1:11:27 No, that that's what I said. Now we have already started educating farmers on these things. Speaker 1 1:11:33 But the other discussions are still in place. Yes, yes. I think that brings our conversation to an end, mr. Damika. Thank you so much for your time and your valuable insights, and we hope to see you again very soon with another episode of Advocata Studio. Thank you. Speaker 2 1:11:51 Thank you very much. Speaker 1 1:11:52 And to our audience, thank you so much for joining us, and we hope to see you again with another episode. Transcribed by https://otter.ai