Dhananath Fernando  00:11
Hello, hello, everyone! You are joining with Advocata Institute and Advocata Institute Studio, and if you are following our channel, you know that we are conducting discussions, conversations, and research on current policy issues, and definitely electricity and solar is one of the main topics as we discuss now. And joining with me is mr. Ashish Khanna, Director General of International Solar Alliance. Ashish, welcome to Advocata and thank you very much for joining the conversation.

Speaker 1  00:45
Ayub Bhawan, Wanakam, Namaskar,

Dhananath Fernando  00:48
Namaste, Namaskar.

Speaker 1  00:49
It's a pleasure, Dhananath, to be here. I'm delighted for this opportunity to join you.

Dhananath Fernando  00:54
Thank you. I mean, the the designation is clear. It's that you are the Director General of International Solar Alliance, but I know there's a lot which was unsaid in this designation. The humble beginnings that you started, and also the work that you have done in Egypt, in Sub-Saharan Africa, and at the World Bank. First, for the benefit of our audience, why don't you tell us, share a little bit about your story and what the International Solar Alliance is about, but more than that, the work that you have done in multiple parts of the world.

Speaker 1  01:27
Thank you, thank you so much. Well, I was born in a small western town of Uttar Pradesh, a small state of 220 million people. It's called Bijnor, and very humble backgrounds, probably. But it was all because of my parents' huge interest in giving us the best education, and the economy of India, as you know, really opened up. So I'm a product of what exposure and relentless pursuit of what your heart says can lead you to. I was in private sector in India for seven years, and then I thought of something much more purposeful and meaningful. I did some assignments for World Bank, and I took a substantial pay cut in joining the World Bank because I thought it'll be a great platform. I was very fortunate to lead the India Energy Programme of World Bank, and in between, I took another career break to do Mason Fellowship at Harvard Kennedy School, and then unfortunately, after my father passed away, I went to Egypt for five years, and you know life sometimes helps you being in the right place at the right time. I was leading a big macroeconomic reform programme, like what Sri Lanka went through, on looking at exchange rate tax laws, but also a lot of renewable energy, private sector investment. Looking after Middle East, North Africa for about five years, and then in Washington DC in World Bank for six years, looking after Sub-Saharan Africa, feeling every day energised and fortunate to make a difference to the lives of so many people on difficult issue, and as and when I got the opportunity and got elected by International Solar Alliance Assembly last November, I'm very fortunate to have taken over a director general in March this year, just three months, four months back.

Dhananath Fernando  03:14
And this is an elected position,

Speaker 1  03:16
is it? Well, it so happened this year that now let me, if you allow me to talk a little bit about Special Solar Alliance. It's it was a treaty-based organisation, born out of Paris Cop in 2015, with the idea of Honourable Prime Minister of India, mr. Narendra Modi, who, along with the French President, believed the time was right for almost Global South to lead an alternate development paradigm of what development, especially in the area of solar, should be. Today, as we stand 10 years from now, we have 124 countries as members of this treaty-based organisation. They have an annual assembly every October, November, and when the new director general was to be elected, because it's substantially bigger. Obviously, a lot of other countries had also expressed an interest, and therefore there was a form of an election last November in which I was very honoured to be elected, and I took over in March. So it's it's a great. It's probably one of the largest multilateral institutions of the global south, and I think that's a space that I feel is very exciting, because the world is ready for different models of development paradigms to be taken away.

Dhananath Fernando  04:28
Since you mentioned about that you had to take a significant pay cut when you were joining the World Bank from the private sector, I may ask which industry that you worked before your joining the World Bank, or in in like which sector?

Speaker 1  04:42
So I was in consulting,

Dhananath Fernando  04:44
right?

Speaker 1  04:44
I was in Arthur Andersen and KPMG,

Dhananath Fernando  04:47
right,

Speaker 1  04:48
and PwC, and doing very well, almost a director. But something, if I may use this opportunity, when youngsters ask me, I should always go by the heart,

Dhananath Fernando  04:58
right?

Speaker 1  04:58
And if you follow your. Heart, you love your job. Your career will be taken care of. So, salary cuts sometimes once in a while it's fine as long as you're following your heart.

Dhananath Fernando  05:07
Absolutely. And now coming back on the International Solar Alliance. So, I think media reported the comments that you made at the event in Colombo. So, probably for Sri Lankans, while we are near the equator and everyone is talking about solar energy and everything that we can do with solar, tell us a little bit about with the alliance when you become a partner country, what are they abide with, and like what are the benefits that they will get, or what is the how the structure works?

Speaker 1  05:45
Sure. So we are a member-based country, and what we are right now really pushing hard, and that was the vision and strategy shared in the Colombo Regional Committee meeting, which I should mention that it is an Asia Pacific meeting of all the countries of Asia and Pacific, in which Sri Lanka was the vice president, so Sri Lanka was hosting 180 delegates from 30 countries, including ministers of 3013 countries. Right. So I think it was quite regional leadership that Sri Lanka showed, and our evolving vision is across four pillars. We first of all we do not want to duplicate what other concessional lending institutions like ADB and World Bank do, nor lot of academic research-focused institutions like IEA and IRENA, which publish reports. So we are trying to see what is really needed to now push the envelope, and we see four pillars. The first pillar is why is private sector investment not investing enough in renewable energy? Even though world saw 2.2 trillion dollars invested in renewable energy, much higher than fossil fuels, less than 15 percent of that was going to developing countries, and actually less than 2% of that was going to Africa, which needs it the most, because, as you might know, the energy access is a crisis there of 600 million people. And the primary reason is that private sector still sees a lot of risk in investing in these developing countries. Private sector, in my experience, as I specialise in enabling private investment, is looking for long-term policy and regulatory clarity. So, a first pillar is focusing on what kind of policies and regulatory environment in the context of each country is extremely important to attract private sector investment, both domestic but also international.

Dhananath Fernando  07:40
Just wanted to, if I may, interrupt for a second on that policy pillar. So, do you do research on the policy and whether the countries contribute to sort of a collective policy or whether there's what are the components of these policy? Before you move to the second pillar, I would like to go a little bit in depth on the on the policy front because this, in my view, very important. Yes.

Speaker 1  08:03
So, it is a combination of both. What you said, Ananath. First, is that in the context of country, like for example Sri Lanka, if you are doing a new law, or if there is a regulation, what is it that is preventing private sector investment? Are there any policy and regulatory aspects of the law? And sometimes it requires a clear vision and clarity. For example, if you look at neighbouring India, the government provided a clear vision of 500 gigawatts of renewable energy by 2030.

Dhananath Fernando  08:39
Right. And 10

Speaker 1  08:40
years back, it looked like a dream, but India has already done almost half of it, and 110 gigawatts of solar in just 10 years, with 150 billion dollars of investment has come.

Dhananath Fernando  08:54
150 billion dollars.

Speaker 1  08:55
How did it come? It came because of policy and regulatory clarity, in addition to an announcement, there were clear policies for supporting the private sector, for supporting sometimes local manufacturing, creation of an institution called Solar Energy Corporation of India as an intermediary to reduce the risk, provide some financing, a standard template for power purchase agreements so that it's not replicated everywhere, and a very transparent bidding process that is eventually moved to an auctions and reverse auction mechanisms to give clarity. A lot of investments on transmission to make sure that whatever you produce is easily absorbed in the system, and if a distribution company needs support, there are some clear policy. So it's an ecosystem development backed by a strong policy and regulatory environment. So based on that experience and other experiences, we bring all of these advice, and then go to the country's context and see what kind of assistance would really help.

Dhananath Fernando  09:59
Thank you. Very much for that detail explanation. So that means when Sri Lanka is part of the the Solar Alliance, that we will have the access, the best practices of other countries, how to do more investment-friendly, predictable, private sector-led policy environment. So then we can attract more and more investment to reach out to our renewable energy targets. Does it? Did I understood it right? I just want to make sure. Sure.

Speaker 1  10:27
Well, that would be our endeavour. Right. This is something I will come to it about the country partnership framework. It will be a very important pillar, but definitely Sri Lanka will have access to all these elements. For example, let me tell you: if you want to have a utility-scale solar, this model in world over, whether it's Middle East, Egypt, India, other places, Vietnam, it's very clear. You clear public land where the land titles are unencumbered. You prepare the land for private sector to invest in. You create transmission evacuation arrangements by government, and then you bid it out with very clear templates and penalties, asking people to come and invest within a stipulated time frame. It's a very standard template, and that will be on offer to Sri Lanka. But if you allow me, let me conclude. That's the first

Dhananath Fernando  11:15
pillar, the policy pillar. Let's move to the second pillar. What's the second pillar?

Speaker 1  11:19
But the first pillar is enabling private investment. One part of it is policy. The other element of it is catalytic finance. Sometimes, private sector is not investing not because of real risk, but a perceived risk. And unfortunately, world is full of countries which have a very good track record of 98% payment and others, but still, investors are demanding a huge risk premium. So we also have a global solar facility, because we don't want to be a bank, as I mentioned before, but we can offer catalytic finance that gives risk mitigation blended finance instruments for countries to invest. Allow me to give you an example. Absolutely,

Dhananath Fernando  12:02
I was about to ask. Give me an example. How how does this work?

Speaker 1  12:06
Let's take an example of a very large country like Nigeria. For your viewers who might not know, Nigeria is almost 200 million people. Half of them, unfortunately, almost more than 90 million people do not even have energy access. Sri Lanka has done a great job of energy access, where 97, 98% people have energy access. So, a large country with such oil and gas resources not having energy access is leading them to a big push on distributed renewable energy. That is, when you are far away areas, you have either small microgrids, mini grids, solar home systems, solar pumps as a way for electrification of households, but also hospitals and others to drive the economy. Now imagine 90 million people, a majority of them, almost more than half of them, going to get DRE. They wanted private sector to start coming and investing. So about 100 mini grids successfully working are going to go up to 10,000 in five years. So the Nigeria Sovereign Investment Authority, their sovereign fund, decided, okay, this is an important national goal. Let's set up a 150 million equity fund to invest in DRI. But their board decided there's risk. This is sovereign money. What if we lose it? So they approached us. Are you willing to give us a small guarantee of first loss, so that if we invest in a company, the first 10% of the loss you can bear? And this kind of financial innovation is really needed to push the people over the mountain-it's a little bit of a hump for private investment. So we are agreeing in principle to give them 10% 15 million of first loss of equity. So our 15 million is going to galvanise 150 million dollars of equity. But as you know, in a debt equity of one is to four, that means almost three times of that debt, that's four 50 million. So 15 million money can galvanise $600 million of funds. That is what is importance of catalytic finance. That I think is the first pillar.

Dhananath Fernando  14:11
Can I ask a fundamental question? So the first pillar is more about giving the investors confidence and the private sector investment. So the Sri Lanka's. I'll quickly try to pick your brain on the Sri Lanka's context. So we have been. I mean, now there's a conversation about unbundling the generation, distribution, and transmission. But also there was a conversation that okay, strategic asset like electricity, why cannot the government run it on its own. Do you have any examples why it? What are the challenges of the government trying to do it, or any success stories? Or what are your thoughts? Because people may think, okay, you are trying to you are trying to support the private sector investment, but. Why cannot the government do it given the strategic interest? Do you have any case studies or thought process on that question before we move to the second pillar?

Speaker 1  15:09
Sure. So I was actually part over 15 years of multiple countries looking at precisely that question, and there is actually some very good compendium of resources. We did a report called "Rethinking Power Reforms. If you just title, it'll give you worldwide experience of last 30 years of grappling with this question.

Dhananath Fernando  15:30
This is under World Bank. This under World Bank.

Speaker 1  15:31
Okay. What can be done by public? What can be done by private? And my understanding right now, and I must confess, I will have a much more structured discussion on this after a couple of months. Once a country partnership strategy is ready, let me give you an example from an international side.

Speaker 2  15:46
The

Speaker 1  15:48
objective of what you want to achieve should be very clearly laid out, and that is definitely bringing down the cost of generation, making sure there are no shortages, and the industry and everyone has a very affordable and reliable energy as engines of jobs and growth. The answer for that may come slightly differently in different countries, but if you have a fiscal crisis and if you have a huge debt by GDP problem, it's going to be very difficult for government to actually lead it. If you had a huge current account surplus and a huge surplus situation, you had the world's best state-owned enterprises. Countries have done this under state-owned enterprises as well. So it a function of enabling circumstances and questions. Do you have world-class corporate governance of state-owned enterprises? Do you have a great fiscal surplus with you, either on current account or others, to actually invest? If not, it's going to be very difficult to do a state-owned. That I think is the general.

Dhananath Fernando  16:53
Thank you very much. So I think we are clear on the first pillar. Shall we move to the second pillar? Sure. The

Speaker 1  16:59
second pillar is, and this is my very deep experience, personal experience of working in 25 countries. Eventually, development has to be self-owned on a local context, and therefore you must have people in each country who are able to grapple with difficult trade-offs, just as the one you just mentioned before, in your own context, and I feel what is unfortunately missing is that countries are dependent on people outside of their country to give them advice, and therefore we want to develop local capability in countries to decide what's best for them. We do it by setting up from the solar side only solar technology applications resource centres called Star C, which are nothing but centres of excellence in your country, where we don't do physical infrastructure. The country chooses a university, and then we help them on your context. What is it that you really need to become a world-class centre of excellence? In countries which want to do a lot more decentralised renewable energy, like solar pumps and others, you will maybe need a good labs and good standards. Some people will need a lot of training to have people maintain your assets because there's a very big risk. You're importing a lot five, seven years down the line, they may actually not work. So you need to create an ecosystem of maintenance and all of that stuff. But then there's also youth and startups. They are going to get and push as disruptors on the new models. So this is something that we are going to be ready in 17 countries by end of this year, and we are glad to report that, as part of Sri Lanka Country Partnership Framework, Sri Lanka will be a country in which we are exploring a Star Centre in University of Morocco. What form it will take, what will be the focus areas, will be a subject of next six months to nine months. Within the second pillar, before I complete, we are now realising that what's going to happen in energy sector over 10 years is the revolution on digitization. What you saw through Amazon of online retail may actually happen in energy, and it just happens because we are based in India, which is the digital super house superpower house of the world. We want to give that expertise to all the countries so that countries can have a digital leapfrogging, and not wait to tell from some developed world over what the latest digitization is. So these centres of excellence, we hope to be connected to a central global capability centre that will give state-of-the-art digital and AI solutions to manage your grids sitting out of Delhi. That's the second pillar.

Dhananath Fernando  19:46
Excellent. That's very interesting that you mentioned that the belief system is that it has to be locally owned and driven by their own will, and they should understand the local context should understand. That this is much needed, but it's an interesting setup that you are. You explain how we are going to set up that the university motor and knowledge centres, and it connects to a global setup. So, how does it? Can you explain a little bit more? And how does it work? Like, how are the resources being done? What is how is the know-how transfer takes place? Who are the resources who will who will basically take the lead in each centre? What is like the monitoring system looks like? How do you assure that it's falling under the broad purview? Could you give a little bit of context on that as well? Because that sounds quite, I would say, cool and interesting at the same time.

Speaker 1  20:39
Yeah. So, Dananath, I think a lot of detail we'll be able to give once the business plan for Star C in Sri Lanka is ready. But let me explain to you on a broader concept.

Dhananath Fernando  20:50
Yeah,

Speaker 1  20:51
we believe a lot of places start training, but unfortunately stops after few training and the institution dies down.

Dhananath Fernando  20:58
Absolutely, that's the reason that I asked that question. Yes, you

Speaker 1  21:00
see. So, and I've been a witness of that in many countries myself. First of all, you need to have the right leadership. I did research on what creates world-class institutions, and one of the first things that came out is the quality of founding dean and leadership that is there for a reasonable amount of time. If you first have the right leadership of that centre of excellence, we'll have to help create a business plan for financial and operational sustainability. That will have to involve private sector lens in terms of jobs, because training is only that relevant if it can lead to certain job and employment. So I think our focus is on having the right leadership, and operational and financial sustainability of those centres, and then we connect them to all the other spokes as well as the hub. That's something that we will endeavour over next six months tonight.

Dhananath Fernando  21:57
Excellent. So we have covered two pillars so far. Shall we move to the next pillar? Yes,

Speaker 1  22:03
the third pillar is that the problem needs regional solutions. Each country should not be looking at solving all its problems, and therefore, we will have certain regional platforms. One of them is on regional interconnections, and we believe island countries like Sri Lanka should actively pursue what are the possibilities of having regional interconnections. And India-Sri Lanka interconnection is a great example of that. What are the advantages of regional interconnections? As you do a lot more solar, which should definitely take out the diesel, I just had the only opportunity of going around Colombo yesterday evening, and I must confess, when I saw the diesel generating station in the heart of Colombo, I said that's not probably the best thing for the country as a whole. That's 30 cents bleeding out the fiscal side, and obviously not very conducive for the climate as well. So if Sri Lanka would like to get out of very expensive diesel plants a combination of solar, but solar is in the day, you have to look at storage. Storage has multiple options now being discussed. You can have pumped storage hydro, where you use a lot of solar in the day to actually pump the water up back, and then use it in the night time. You can have some battery energy storage solutions, and you can do wind because this country is also blessed with wind. But even after all of that, energy security requires regional interconnections, especially on markets that are very large, so if the diesel-based generation is as much as 2025 cents, whereas the neighbouring Indian electricity market has an average price of seven to 8u.S. cents, it's a no-brainer for Sri Lanka to get connected that at times of evening peak or any form of energy security, you can get the power and have regional energy trade. So that's a regional platform is very important. What we also did for some of the smaller, smaller island states, Sri Lanka is of course not SIDS, but Pacific Islands and all are coming together to do an aggregate procurement because the private sector doesn't want to do one megawatt, two megawatt plant in small islands, and why to replicate all those bids? So all the island countries are coming together, and they signed a declaration of intent to do an aggregate digital tender to get the economies of scale, the best private sector to come and get into solar and batteries package there, so that's another platform, SIDS platform, and regional interconnection platforms.

Dhananath Fernando  24:46
Excellent. So just to follow up on that that pillar, I think Sri Lanka has been in conversation on regional connectivity and connecting with the Indian grid during the crisis that. I mean that became a main conversation to an extent because okay, what are the options that we have? Do you have? I saw also India has connected with I think the Napoleon grid and there's a broader programme going also if I remember right connecting also to the Middle Eastern grid. Could you share what's the response since you have also done change management and and on the leadership on taking you know convincing different stakeholders onto a common objective, how was the response on this grid connectivity? I'm not sure because those countries have some level of land connectivity that they are open, or whether as Sri Lankans, we are in island, so we are quite cautious when we try to connect. Or what is the response when you try to connect the grids? What are the risks, or what are the common issues that is coming up? Since this is a conversation, as Advocata, we have been mainly also advocating for somewhat grid connectivity. And I have read a report, like a feasibility study, which was done. I think in 1990s, or even I think it goes before that. But again, it was a feasibility study. Probably now, if you want to do the grid connectivity, probably there has to be another feasibility study to be done. Could you, you know, give some context with your global expertise? How does it work, and what are the main concerns by the other regional players when this connectivity business comes into play.

Speaker 1  26:24
Sure. Well, on your point in between, when I was in India leading the programme, we were trying to do India Sri Lanka interconnectivity 1520 years back as well. So I think it's been under discussion, but I believe the time has come. But I'll tell you why. We had a regional interconnection discussion in Colombo day before yesterday, where Bhutan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, UAE, and Indian stakeholders were together, and what came out is unequivocal support of what Nepal, Bhutan, and Bangladesh mentioned has happened because of grid connectivity with India. Nepal has very little hydro in winters, so the interconnectivity with India is the way by which they get the power. Similarly, is the case with Bhutan, and Bhutan sells a lot of hydropower exports, which are a large set of their national revenues. Hydro is like gold for them. So, each of these three countries are saving enormous amount of billions of dollars on either both diesel, but also revenues by having the interconnectivity. And now, you are talking about an undersea link of 40 to 120 kilometres. There is a very advanced discussion with UAE and Saudi Arabia of actually having an undersea link of more than 1,500 to 2,000 kilometres, and both the countries, the UAE expert who's the advisor to the minister, was asking to expedite this undersea link because there's a win-win for everyone. It can bring down the cost of battery storage because your peak is not the peak elsewhere, and therefore the investment requirements for battery can be minimised considerably. And then there is a path for interconnecting South Asia to Asia through Singapore. So not only does Sri Lanka get access to the whole market by connecting to India, it brings down the cost of your energy, and it gives you energy security. I think that is very important. So I think the business case for regional interconnections is there. It the question sometimes is of looking at institutional mechanisms and financing, but once a business case is there, those issues can always be resolved.

Dhananath Fernando  28:47
Excellent. So you have explained three key pillars of the alliance, and of course we are waiting to see the country framework. So then probably we can go to the details. Anything else that we need? Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 1  29:01
The fourth pillar, just very briefly, is on technology policy and technology roadmaps. You know, the world is changing very fast. You are thinking of new technologies, like building integrated PV, by which the glass of any building and the material will be based on solar. So you need not even have solar PV. So land-constrained countries like Sri Lanka, where a lot of urbanisation will happen, can have a lot of new technologies on building integrated PV solve the energy requirement. There is a technology called perovskite that is very different in terms of solar PV. Not even doesn't use silica, and then on the batteries, there's a lot of experimentation that's going on long-term battery storage. So countries want a view from us that which technologies should they bet on, because once you bet on a technology, you're stuck for 25 years. So we want to do an analytical framework to help countries understand that in their. Context or green hydrogen, perovskites, BIPV. What is the policy? What we need to do to actually absorb that? I think is the fourth pillar.

Dhananath Fernando  30:07
Thank you very much. So to understand the the policy context and to basically untap this private sector capital on one side and also on the regional connectivity, what sort of a policy framework that you are looking at that respective country or your country partner, and what is the best practice that you have seen in in other parts of the world?

Speaker 1  30:28
Sure. So if if you suggest, then we can come to know the country partnership framework. Out of 124 countries, we will prioritise at the most seven or eight countries to do a country partnership framework, and Sri Lanka is one of them.

Dhananath Fernando  30:41
That's good news for us.

Speaker 1  30:43
What is what entails in a country partnership framework, either the four pillars that we talked about, but then something that is very contextual to Sri Lanka would be analysed, or what is a three to five year ecosystem framework for developing the entire ecosystem for solar batteries and EVs in Sri Lanka, and over next three to four months, we will have multiple sets of discussions with multiple stakeholders to finalise a country partnership strategy, and then we will set up a dedicated national support unit in Sri Lanka, because these things cannot be done sitting somewhere else. You need hands on the ground, ears on the ground, complex project management to get it implemented. Now, what are some of the ideas? I think the first idea is you have a very ambitious solar plan, the Green Acceleration Plan. What will it take to put in framework for its PD implementation? There are concerns of private sector. There are concerns on land. There are concerns on others. We will like to hear from the government, private sector regulators, all of us, including the multilateral agencies which are supporting you. What kind of a policy and regulatory framework will help speed this process, like setting up a solar park. What is preventing solar parks? Are there real issues on land titles? So that I think is one pillar. The second pillar, as I mentioned, is or the second theme of the country partnership framework is the Star Centre. Institutions take a long time, unfortunately, but we have to set the right foundations. If we are able to set the right foundations, help Sri Lanka create a good business plan. Perhaps take an example of digital practices. One of the things which is coming out with countries that have done very good on solarization by private sector is on importance of digital tendering. Now it is possible to have digital tools of allowing all private sectors to digitally tender through an auction or a reverse auction process, get the least possible price, and a contract template that has clear accountability frameworks of things to be done at the right time. Finally, I believe solar now has the power of creating a lot of jobs for youth and women. Farmers, for example, can really look at solar technologies, whether it is a solar pump because diesel is way too expensive. India has more than 2 million solar pumps now. India has dedicated schemes to help solar pumps, but also to avoid wastage of food, I believe in most countries, probably including Sri Lanka, a large amount of food, 20 30% is getting wasted. How to actually get cold storage solutions and others that are now possible with such an abundant sunshine in Sri Lanka? So we will evaluate some of that. And finally, yesterday we had a great entrepreneur who was talking about solar ferries. Now there are about ferries which do need not have diesel-based, you know, boats. So at least on a test case basis, if you can have solar, maybe charged with solar EVs as well. And finally, something that we are seeing in most developing countries, urban mobility is a lot about two-wheelers and three-wheelers. If switching it to battery, which is cheaper, but looking at battery swapping, batting technologies, so you see the gamut of how it can impact the lives of so many people, bring down the cost is enormous. So that is something that we are planning to study over next six months, and then have a country partnership strategy for next three to five years.

Dhananath Fernando  34:25
I want to quickly touch upon one point that you mentioned about the land. Now, one of the main even the conversations that we had different ministers, they they tend to target on the rooftop solar because there are solar contracts being given. We have signed the agreement, and after some time, it is not connecting to the grid because the developer comes and says, "Look, I'm having a very difficult time getting you know getting the land cleared because you have to go through multiple regulatory agencies, and in Sri Lanka's context, 80% of the land is owned by the government and." We pretty much have a we have a programme called BIMSA, which actually gives the titles, but the process is very slow. Which is, I mean, running for I think more than 1015 years, but the process is very slow because we really haven't put a lot of resources on this, giving the like the digitised cadestel system, and you really don't get a title in that context. But you also mentioned that if it's there, if there's under the second pillar, if I remember right, there are options that there are penalties, there are incentives, and you declare the government declares the land, and then you have some options. Could you elaborate a little bit more on this? Because from my little experience, it seems that land title gets seems to be. I mean, it will take a little bit of time on one side. At the same time, I want to also on the same question. I'm not sure I'm making the question too loaded, but also the integrated framework that you would like to work because it seems with solar you have to look at other options as well. Like, is there an integrated approach where on storage and maybe with wind on the all the renewable aspect, or are you pretty much as as an alliance only targeting the solar side in this context? Am I? Did I make it too complicated for you? No,

Speaker 1  36:20
no, no. I think, but let me dissect because you asked Danath multiple questions on the details of land. I think I'm not the expert because I don't know the Sri Lankan context. The question of land-related laws are very contextual to each country, so I am not in a position to give you a detailed answer on that, but I'll give you a generic perspective, both from an international experience, which is that the speedier process of land transfers and any compensation elements that are related to loss of income or anything by anyone, that is possible, because there is policies and frameworks that can standardise the process for crop compensation and other elements that are there for transmission lines for land. I think the issue is removing multiple parties involved, and then of course looking at the local land. You asked in the end another question. You have to remind me, which was about

Dhananath Fernando  37:31
which is the integrated way of yes.

Speaker 1  37:35
Now we are Solar Alliance. We definitely do batteries, and we can talk about green hydrogen, but indeed, a lot of experience that's coming up in some countries is about hybridization. That can the combination of solar and wind and hydro give you a lot more clarity. I think it will happen much more so if you have a regional interconnection as well. That's the integrated ecosystem approach, because what does Sri Lanka have? Sri Lanka has loads of sunshine, Sri Lanka has lots of water, and Sri Lanka has lots of wind. So, what is the best optimal combination of utilising all these three? Which I can assure you, what the world is seeing will need a huge amount of transmission investments. If you were to go to countries like Vietnam, India, and others that are doing a lot of renewable energy, they will tell you our top priorities are transmission and, of course, land. So I think solar eventually can be managed. What is important is a lot of transmission investments and concerns around availability of land. Now this is something that we'll have to discuss. We will discuss with the government. We'll have to understand what the context, what other partners are already doing, our local think tanks, World Bank, ADB. But we will bring all the international experience to do something that's very action-oriented. One of the things that I believe is very important is not to have reports, but to have real milestones for actions over six months, two years, three years-that will be our intent.

Dhananath Fernando  39:05
I think even the prime minister, from what I saw on reported news stories, that she has given a very strong commitment that solar and renewable is no longer like an option; it's a mandatory thing that we need to do if we are serious about it. On on that note, one

Speaker 1  39:23
small thing I will say. What I think the Honourable Prime Minister Harry Masuria was very clear. It should not be seen from a perspective of an international pledge only. I think what's driving solar, if you look at most countries, is the economics of it. I'll give you an example of Africa. We got four countries who were all diesel based at 2530 cents, commit to the first competitive tender on an aggregation, and even countries Sierra Leone, Chad, Togo, and Liberia, with unfortunately a lot of fragility, get got price bids of. Four cents with battery storage, with of course a lot of concessional IDA financing. I think what countries are now realising is for them to get out of energy poverty because energy is the essential archery of economic growth for digitization and others. What is your least cost option? And I think there, what the prime minister was saying.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai