Dhananath Fernando 00:11 Hello, hello, everyone! You are joining with another podcast at Advocata Studio. There's a big conversation about digitising all payments and moving towards a cashless society, and there's one pioneer organisation who works on it, and that's pretty much their main one of their main mandates. That's none other than Lanka Pay, and we are honoured to have the CEO of Lanka Pay, mr. Chan Disilva. mr. Di Silva, thank you very much for joining Advocata Studio. Speaker 1 00:43 Thank you for having me. Dhananath Fernando 00:44 Just I think first let's understand. While I'm sure most of us go to the ATM and withdraw money and we deposit checks and business community, they ask transfers money from this bank to the other bank. People do online payments, but I'm sure not many people aware of the role of Lanka Pay that is in this entire system. Would you first brief our audience what is Lanka Pay and what's the structure and what is your role on day-to-day lot of transactions? Speaker 1 01:21 Yeah, I think good question. So, so Lanka Pay is actually, if you look at a facilitator, it's actually a you know primary role is a back end role, where we interconnect all the banks. Dhananath Fernando 01:34 Right. Right. Speaker 1 01:35 So, I mean, if you if you will, Lanka Lanka Pay was started as Lanka Clear in 2002 to address a problem which was interbank check clearing, which took about six to eight years, six to eight days to clear, and the the requirement was somebody had to wait for that much to fund for the funds to realise if it's an interbank cheque, right? Right. So for that, actually, a system was required to reduce that time frame, and since central bank is the regulator, they couldn't implement a solution, so they needed a different entity to carry out that execution and transaction. So that's where they set up Lanka at that time, Lanka Clear as a public-private partnership, which 47% shares owned by the government and 53% by the banks, and to function as a private company because they wanted somebody to be agile and to deliver results in a you know very short time. So that's where Lanka Clear was set up to initially do the interbank cheque clearing, which system was implemented in 2006, where the interbank check clearing time was reduced to one business day using a system. Dhananath Fernando 02:50 Right. Speaker 1 02:51 So that was the initial. Then what central bank and the other financial sector realised was there's more to the you know payments than checks, and and another problem that they realised was like, I mean, we are talking about less cash or a cashless economy, but in in there's no country without cash, so there is a requirement for cash in Sri Lanka, but there is an inconvenience factor where even though the banks have introduced ATMs, you had to go to your own bank's ATM to withdraw cash, whereas in especially if you take rural areas, you don't get many ATMs, and the ATMs that are available are from a different bank. So people had no choice but to travel five to 10 kilometres looking for your own bank's ATM. So as a result of that, central bank wanted Lanka clear at that time to establish a network where it connects all the ATMs of banks and facilitate a interbank ATM transaction where a customer could go to a any ATM, any ATM and withdraw cash and check their balances. I mean, basic services, not all the services, but those are the most commonly used services. So that's actually that was established in 2013, and the next step was basically to set up real-time fund transfers because that that's actually you know previously I mean there are other mechanisms you have to go to a post office to send money to somebody and things like that where why can't you use you know your bank's internet banking or mobile banking and just send money to somebody from home or wherever. So that's where Lanka Pay established the real-time fund transfer mechanism in 2014, where where it connected all the banks where you can send funds immediately in real-time basis, where the the beneficiary gets credited immediately, the fund transfers. So, so in in that sense, you know the the entire rail of digital payments is actually running on real time payments now. Later on, we extended that into mobiles and other areas. So, so this is so the the role of Lanka Pay is basically facilitating the. The bank transactions, whether it's check clearing, ATM, or real time transfers, and the entire rail of digital payments across banks, we actually later on extended it to non-banking financial institutions as well as fintechs as well. So now the entire ecosystem is connected in a single network where you can send and receive money from any bank to any bank or any anybody to anybody. Dhananath Fernando 05:22 Yeah. So just basically, when you go log into your whatever that your bank's online system, let's say Sampath Bank, you go to their online system and you click click link cling cling cling, and then the money transfers. That happens like real time when you click this button to transfer or whatever, and then like in few seconds' time, the money is transferred to whoever the other person's side, and that is happens through the Lanka Clear platform, and that's how how this game works. Speaker 1 05:52 Yes. So, so there is a slight listing which may be of interest to, so the customer gets the money in real time, but the bank to bank, there are two exchanges between the banks. That happens subsequently. That is through a system called RTGS. That's done by central. That's the settlement part. But which the customer is doesn't need to be aware. But the customer gets the funds instantaneously. So the system works, and the customer gets the funds immediately. Dhananath Fernando 06:17 Excellent. Just wanted to go back on one point that you mentioned that in terms of the structure of Lanka pay, you said overall it's about 47% to the government. So the composition is, I think, from what I read, about 19% to 20% is by the central bank, and you have the other bank. So what you probably meant was also the combination of the People's Bank and the BOC together. Speaker 1 06:44 So I think I mean if you if you look at Langkape, it's a public-private partnership. We are a shareholding, so it's it's set up as a private company, and for the purpose of to be agile and you know invest ahead of the curve in technology. Otherwise, if you are if you are a government entity, if you go through the process, it takes a long time to implement something. So I think it's the purpose driven. So the the the it actually set up in a way that the shareholding for government is kept below 48% so that the company actually can function fully as a private entity and deliver. However, the government agenda is driven through central bank, fully regulated by central bank. All our systems are approved by central bank. Whoever who connects to our network must get central bank approval. So, in that sense, the complete regulation is ensured. And also, from a from a security and other perspective, we have to follow through international standards like the PCI DSS, so that our data is secure and and you know hopefully tamper-proof. I mean, I would say hopefully because no no system is 100% tamper-proof, but we we we we go through the international standards to make sure that our systems have the highest security standards. So in that sense, rest of the actually 47% is currently owned by the government and 53 by rest of the commercial banks. So, however, we are also connecting other NBFI finance companies and fintechs. They are coming as secondary members. They are not shareholders, but we they are in our system. But and and we connect the entire ecosystem together. So so so in that sense, you know, we can facilitate any type of payment across from one entity to the other. So so and immaterial of the location, we have an immaterial of the device, immaterial of the mode. Dhananath Fernando 08:42 Got it. Now, just to understand, just quick question. Now, what if the shareholding? Now you say about 48% of the government. That's including the People's Bank and the Bank of Ceylon. What if, if it's above 48% or if it exceeds 50% Because already it seems majority is owned by the private sector. You mentioned if it's above, then you cannot run as like a private company. Like, what are the implications? Speaker 1 09:06 It cannot go because article specifies that government shareholding cannot go above above 48% And if it Dhananath Fernando 09:12 goes, even if you change the articles of association, if you change it, then are you are you are you coming under COP or like what what are the other implications? Yeah, Speaker 1 09:21 so so so the the the whole idea, the way it was structured as a private company for us to create agility, because in in technology it's changing so fast you can't wait for six months to implement. So it's kept in such a way that that the the I mean it's fully regulated. However, can function as a private company so that so that we we can respond to market requirements immediately. So I think it's best it kept that way. Otherwise, we will not be able to implement our technology, you know, at the pace it it requires. Requires Dhananath Fernando 09:53 now just to understand the back end a bit. So what do you actually provide? Like, is it like a technological product? I'm just for common man's understanding because okay, I only know like I transfer from my system, but I wasn't aware like as a I I wasn't in the sense our audience or someone may not be aware okay how this actually banks because when I when I you know transfer money from my bank how does it really go to someone else's bank so whether it's like a network platform or how does it work? Also for check clearances, and I would also like to ask about the ATMs. People may think like, okay, I go to my bank's ATM, so is it owned by Lanka Lanka Pay or is it like that bank or how does it really work? Could you kindly explain these two to our audience? Yeah. Speaker 1 10:36 So what we have established is connectivity through the telco network, Dhananath Fernando 10:41 right Speaker 1 10:41 among all the banks and so everybody is connected to our backend, Dhananath Fernando 10:45 right? Speaker 1 10:46 Technical, technologically connected through these slides. Any bank Dhananath Fernando 10:49 is technologically connected to Lanka pays backend. Yeah, through through Speaker 1 10:52 VPN through secure secure channels. So once that is connected, they so what we actually I mean our systems what it does is actually it's exchanging messages, right? So, for example, technically, what happens is if I want to send 1000 rupees to somebody in another bank, the message has to go saying the money needs to get transferred from this bank account to this bank account, the amount, right, right. And what we actually do is when the when the bank initiates, it connects to us and which knows where that other bank is. So we are basically doing you know routing function, message formatting function, so that so that both sides understand. So it's actually a technological messaging platform, you know, which is established where the messaging goes saying, hey, you know credit this amount to this account, and it's a rule-based system, Dhananath Fernando 11:44 right? Speaker 1 11:45 Right. So so there are certain set of rules that we have defined so that both sides have to adhere to and agree to. Otherwise, you know this cannot work as a common network, right? And then as I said, just you know it's so the instruction will go from one bank to the other. Hey, please credit this amount against this this bank account, so that the other bank honours, and and a response comes to the the sending bank saying, hey, this account is credited. You can confirm to the customer that the money has been transferred. So so that's the basic platform for all the plat you know kind of services that we provide, you know, we basically send that message, communication, and send the confirmation back from a from a customer perspective. Then the transaction is done, right? So so moving back to ATMs. So it's so basically what happens is previously you had to go to your own bank's ATM to withdraw. So, if you go to an ATM, you would see the Lanka Pay sticker. Dhananath Fernando 12:44 Right. Speaker 1 12:44 So, what it means is actually it's connected to what we call our common ATM switch. Dhananath Fernando 12:49 Right. Right. Speaker 1 12:49 So, all the all the banks ATM switches are connected to our switch. Dhananath Fernando 12:53 Right. Speaker 1 12:54 So, what happens is if I want to if I go to another bank's ATM and put my debit card or ATM card, it basically connects to our system and authenticates from because you type the pin. It actually through our system authenticates from your own bank, Dhananath Fernando 13:08 right? Speaker 1 13:08 Because you have to validate that this is the right customer and the pin is correct. So once that is done, a message is sent, authenticated, and the customer's account gets debited automated in real time at the customer's bank, and the message is sent. You can you can disperse the cash. So and then the the the the bank that owns the ATM instructs the ATM to release the funds. So the customer gets cash instantaneously. However, actually the cash in in that sense belongs to the the the bank that owns the ATM. So subsequently, a financial transaction happens between the two banks for the settlement between the two banks, but the customer can withdraw cash instantaneously. Same way, customer can also check his balances through the same system through authentication. Check the bank, customer's bank, and sense the balance. This is the balance in your account. So those are basic services that we provide through the common ATM network, Dhananath Fernando 14:01 and also from the from the little that I read, like you run like multiple systems for check clearance. I think there's something called not the check clearance. Like I think there are SEFs and Slips and different systems. Yes, could you elaborate a bit more? Is it like you know, as you said, like from one person transferring to another, there's one system, and if it's one person transferring to a foreign account, if it's another system, or whether one person clearing a check-is-is it another system, or whether it's an international bank, is it another system? Could you elaborate a little bit on those, like you know, those abbreviations? What does it really mean, and how does it work? Speaker 1 14:36 So, so those are different systems, right? So, for example, check clearing-it's actually based on imaging, so what actually happens is previously what happened was the physical check. Once you hand over to a bank, they used to send the physical check to the other side to validate the signature and all that, right? So that was the physical. That's why it took seven eight days to for a check earlier, right? So what we did was when when you actually hand over the check to the bank, bank scans it. Immediately, right, and it creates that image, and that image is the one that gets transferred through technology, right, right. Image plus the text on that, you know, there is a barcode, yes, that that tests the information of customer account number and all those things. So that information gets transferred to us. Then our system sorts when when a check comes. Our system sorts and determines. Okay, this check needs to get directed to a particular bank. The other the check has been issued, right? And then they confirm that the funds are available, and the confirmation goes back to that bank to release the funds, right? Right. So it's it's basically a technological system, Dhananath Fernando 15:35 and this all happens automatically. Not that one person is at the back end and checks like nothing like that. It's all happens. All happens automatically, right? Speaker 1 15:42 So, so that's such a clearing. So, in terms of CEFs, which is the real-time system, it's one-to-one. So, you, I send money to somebody instantaneously to from one bank account to another bank account. Then we also have a system which is called slips, which is bulk payments. Now, for example, what do you Dhananath Fernando 16:03 mean by bulk payment? Speaker 1 16:04 For example, salary payments. If you take an organisation, organisation maintains the account in one bank, but the employees have their accounts in different banks. So they need to send money. Previously, it was to checks, which took several days. Now, what happens is, bank sends an instruction to his their bank, saying okay, transfer funds to these these accounts of these banks. So that's an instruction through a file system, right? So it creates a secure file that's which will actually digitally sign and send to bank, and then it submits to our bulk system, which sends the money to different bank accounts based on that instruction, right? So it's called one too many, right? Right. So one organization's bank sends instruction in a file, send money to this, this, this account, 100 or 200 or whatever. So that actually is not real time. So it's which we call same day. So if you instruct in the morning, it happens in the afternoon, right? So that's why you get instructions in the morning, and you get your salary credited in the afternoon. So it's again fast payment system, but not real time. But it's primarily for bulk. So all the EPF and other beneficiary payments, even as to assume all these are actually because this government sends to multiple beneficiaries. This is actually happening through this this slip system, and we we also have a couple of other areas like we we also establish U.S. dollar clearing, which was a problem previously because now for interbank, so we have traders, so they do interbank dollar transfers for settlements, right? For for for their goods and and payments for that, and previously every transaction had to go internationally through Nostro, which costs like you know 20 $25, but here we establish a system. A domestic transactions can happen within you know within the day, same day or next day. So $1 transaction can handle locally, and what actually happens is only the bank-to-bank settlement day in one transaction happens through nostro. So the cost structure for doing a domestic interbank USD transaction we have brought it down drastically by enabling domestic interbank USD clearing. So these are some of the systems that we establish. So, so what we do is we actually now what we once we establish the real time payments, we saw a gap in the market. How do you do mobile payments? So we talked about internet banking and mobile banking, but there are so many fintech apps out there, right? So the problem we saw saw was the fintech is not a regulated domain in Sri Lanka. Some other countries, fintechs are regulated by central bank. Here, fintechs are not regulated, so they were actually outside the banking system. So then, we need to go and figure out a way. How do we get into the formal financial ecosystem and ensure payments for them? So what we did was we implemented a system called JustPay, which is basically a customer can attach his bank account to a fintech app, and you know carry out transactions because fintech is not a bank; they are a you know third-party entity. So they are what we did was only requirement is fintech to partner with one bank or one member, regulated member who's connected to our system, Dhananath Fernando 19:20 right. Speaker 1 19:21 So once they are connected to one bank, they are connected to the entire ecosystem. So they can actually target entire banking population using this, and you know drive you know financial inclusivity, financial transactions, provide services because now they are now in the formal financial ecosystem through this partnership. So we have established a platform where a customer can actually attach his bank account and make a payment using a fintech, and it's fully regulated. It's going through the regulated financial ecosystem. Dhananath Fernando 19:52 So just to understand now, with GovPay coming in, I think there was a conversation like you can pay through. Also, I'll use the example like. Helapay. So basically, you give your account details to Helapay, and your account details is mainly one of the licenced commercial banks, which has been authorised by the central bank. Yes. And basically, by when you give that, when you give those account details to Helapay, which connects through to the entire ecosystem. Speaker 1 20:18 Yeah. So what actually happens is Helapay, if you take this example, is connected to a licenced bank. Dhananath Fernando 20:23 Right. Speaker 1 20:23 So what Helipay does is, you know, basically instruct their bank to carry out the transaction. Helipay cannot directly carry out the transaction. They are what we call acquiring bank. Right. Which actually does the financial transaction. So that is why it's within the regulated system. Right. Right. So through the through the app, what it does is just sends a messaging saying, "Hey, this one wants to send money to this one, or you know something like that. So in that sense, the instruction is issued to the bank, and the bank actually uses the regular real-time rails to carry out the transaction. And so once the transaction is confirmed, completed, the bank actually informs the app back, saying, "Hey, the transaction is completed and it's successful. So then, so in in that sense, the data actually, you know, the data exchange is within the regulated banking system. What actually the fintech apps are doing is basically creating an interface platform for convenience platform for customers to enjoy these services, maybe you know more convenient than some of the other banking apps which are there to provide a better service, better user experience, right? So that's why the adoption on on on fintech apps may be more because they may be more user friendly. They may be having more services available than others. So what we have really done is we have democratised the whole ecosystem, where a customer doesn't now doesn't necessarily need to go his to his own internet banking or mobile banking, where they can now use a fintech app and enjoy the same services. So, so that way we have democratised the whole ecosystem and brought fintechs into the entire financial ecosystem, so that they can provide a much more convenient and user friendly, better user experience to end users. Dhananath Fernando 22:04 Got it. Before we move to the other sections, I also would like to touch upon the international transfers which you mentioned. Is there a different system? For an example, we get quite a lot of remittances, and on import and exports, there are a lot of transactions that that takes place, and you mentioned about the international system, which requires about I think $25, and now you have basically taken it to the to the domestic side on clearance. Could you elaborate a bit more on how does it work, and also what is this international the abbreviation that you used, and who owns it, and does it you know, for for our audiences' understanding? Speaker 1 22:43 So, so our actual network was primarily set up initially for domestic transactions. But however, due to financial crisis, Sri Lanka faced many challenges in foreign exchange receiving foreign exchange. So, they are actually central bank requested us to support to attract you know more remittances as well as support tourism tourists to carry out transactions. Right. Right. So in that sense, what we we did two things. One is we actually went and established an app called Lanka Remit. Dhananath Fernando 23:12 Right. Speaker 1 23:13 Where somebody outside Sri Lanka can actually attach tokenize their card and use the app and send money here, so that actually comes through the formal financial banking ecosystem, right? So you know it's actually using the card rails, and and basically funds come to a bank account here, and and that's fully you know KYC accounts, and you know you know the money laundering aspects are handled by the banks because both sides are banks are involved, right? So in terms of the remittance, that's what we have enabled. But in in order to facilitate tourism, so what we realised was, you know, we had a lot of informal systems previously, right? Where the money was actually not really coming into Sri Lanka, you know, Undial and all these other illegal systems, and people were sending money because they didn't have any other choice, right? So in that sense, what we figured was: Can we provide a system for tourists to make a payment here once they are here by using their own app, whatever that they are using in their own country? If they are using it in their country, the same way can they use it here? Because then you create a seamless experience, no friction, right? And they will use just just the way they are using, and their account is actually also debited in their own currency, right? So so that's where we establish. You know, we have already established the QR network, which is Lanka QR. So what what we did was we enabled Lanka QR to be used by any app in in outside, by partnering with some other networks in those countries. For example, with India, we partnered with NPCI, so they have a system called UPI, which is basically you know using their bank accounts to send money. And any UPI enabled app, once they come to Sri Lanka, they can actually scan Lanka QR. And make a payment, and and using the app like you know they have phone pay, G Pay, Google Pay, and other apps that are using used in so all the same app, right? And they just scan and pay. Their account is debited in INR, and the merchant gets real time credit in LKR here. So we have established that system. So initially NPCI UPI, then we connected UnionPay, China. We have also connected AliPay Plus, which actually connects 36 wallets in the region. So any any of those 36 wallets, if they come to Sri Lanka, now they can scan and pay, just like what they are doing in other countries. We are also just almost they are connecting WeChat, which is the largest wallet in in China, and we are also working with many other countries to to enable these services. So the the whole purpose is to support the foreign exchange in coming into the country. So that was phase one. We are also working to the other way around. When one of our people go outside to facilitate payment, we have not enabled that yet, but the main purpose was to support the country and the government and the economy to attract foreign exchange. So that's where these international collaborations we have established to facilitate. We are also actually facilitating card transactions when foreigners come, JCB card from Japan, a Union Pay card. All these cards we we have connected through our network, so they can go to a any POS or ATM in Sri Lanka and either withdraw cash or make a payment. So so that we have enabled rails because some of the other international cards are already connected, but for the the networks that are not connected, we are actually helping them to connect and create a seamless experience for people who travel to Sri Lanka. Dhananath Fernando 26:44 Now, just to just to just to make sure that I understood what you said right. So basically, if a foreigner comes and let's say he or she uses their ATM in an ATM here, so if the two networks are connected, then basically they can withdraw cash in LKR, but their account will get debited in their own currency if it's connected. And now, as you said, like you have connected with Alipay and most of the other digital wallets as well as well as other networks. So then that transaction is quite smooth. And even for Sri Lankans who travels overseas, they probably use their local bank card in their ATM. So as long as it's connected, that transaction is smooth. Did I understand right? Speaker 1 27:32 So, so what actually happened was previously some of these transactions were happening through international networks only. Dhananath Fernando 27:39 Right, Speaker 1 27:40 right. So the cost structure was quite high. Dhananath Fernando 27:43 Right. Speaker 1 27:43 So what we did was we directly partnered with some of these players, and once we connect, actually connects through the domestic network through us, and then what we have done is we have actually you know brought the cost structure down for somebody to use, and and some of these networks were not connected here, so now we have once we have enabled those, a person can come to Sri Lanka, use his ATM debit card inner ATM or a POS here, and carry out a transaction. So either withdraw cash or make a payment. So that that's that's been enabled through our network. Dhananath Fernando 28:19 Not only that, like even like a QR like a digital payment through a QR code that you can do the same Speaker 1 28:25 absolutely Dhananath Fernando 28:26 got it. Now coming back to the cost structure and the transaction time. Now you mentioned let's take the easiest example on a salary the bulk transfers that when you do give the direction in the morning the salaries get transferred in the afternoon. Like, how do you benchmark it with the other systems around, like in the region or in the globe? Or is there a way that we can further minimise the transaction time? So, from from eight days of check clearance, now we have brought it to one day. Now, is there a way that we can fasten it more? Like, how do you see on the improvement side. Speaker 1 29:02 Yeah, so I I think these are addressing different problems in the market. Dhananath Fernando 29:06 Right. Speaker 1 29:07 Right. So for example, you know when you you know send you know want to you know disburse salary, it may not necessarily need to be real time. Dhananath Fernando 29:16 Right. Speaker 1 29:17 Right. So so those are used for specific purposes. Right. So so in that sense, bulk payments doesn't necessarily have to be real time, Dhananath Fernando 29:25 right? Speaker 1 29:26 But a customer payment, a fund transfer, Dhananath Fernando 29:28 has to be has to be Speaker 1 29:29 real time because the other party needs the money then and there, right? So, so normally, real time payments are used when the receiver needs the money instantaneously, whereas bulk payments are used when the there is no urgency to have it real time, and you know something like checks. It's actually you know it's I I don't know whether it's I mean I think it's not properly legal, but the checks are actually used as credit instrument by traders, right? So so because the. Check gets rotated 30 days, 60 days, 90 days among parties. So because of that, still the checks are in use, right? So in that sense, the check may doesn't need to real get real time, you know, realise. So T plus one we call it the next day clearance is good enough actually for that kind of transaction, right? So so I think all these systems are, especially if you are doing a mobile payment, it has to be real time because you expect you send instantaneously. You expect the other party to receive instantaneously. So, so in that sense, I think it addresses different problems in the market. Dhananath Fernando 30:35 Got it. Speaker 1 30:35 And and and and and provides different experiences for users. Dhananath Fernando 30:39 So, do you mean to say, if it's real time, there's a cost because I think the next question that I was coming to, I mean that was if the lineup was okay. People always say okay, when I transfer on the own bank, they don't charge or they charge five rupees, but when I transfer to another bank, they charge 25 rupees, 30 rupees. So does it mean that the cost of the transaction with the real time is maybe you are using a higher bandwidth or whatever that technological thing is. It the reason? Speaker 1 31:06 Yeah, actually, I mean, when you have different systems, it has different requirements. So, so there are different technology investments that has to happen, not just from our end but also bank side as well. So, based on that cost structure to establish as well as maintain a system, a pricing formula is determined. Right, however, the pricing formula is controlled by central bank by setting up a maximum customer fee. So it's not controlled by the banks or others. It's set by central bank to have it affordable. I mean, not necessarily free because the problem with free is when you give something free, who pays for the maintenance and upgrade of that system? Because I mean, it's it's a problem with the subsidy, you know, concept of subsidy, right? So as long as you charge a reasonable fee, then the customer would use it because what is the cost of the alternative? Now, now, now, for example, if I want to send money to somebody, if I want to say withdraw money from some, see if I'm if my ATM is not next to me, next to my house, I have to you know go two kilometres. I have to take a bus. So what is the cost of the bus? One bus salt is 28 rupees. So up and down it cost me 56 rupees. So as long as you can do it from home or the next door, right? For cheaper than 56 rupees, the cost of the alternative is better, right? So in that sense, the the fees that are charged should be reasonable and affordable. Plus, also it should be cheaper than the cost of the alternative, so I think in that sense, because otherwise what actually happens is, otherwise these systems will not be upgraded, security will not be maintained because there is an investment that in all parties. It's not just one party because it's a complex network, right? The telcos have to upgrade their networks, bandwidths have to be upgraded, so they all. So in that sense, cost structure is determined so that a quality, world-class service can be provided, and the customers, you know, what they need to look at is what is that cost of the alternative, right? And and you know the time that is wasted, you know, those are not normally costed by people. So even if you leave that aside, there are direct costs as well. So I think so. Depending on the investments and other things that are have to be done by the entire ecosystem, a fee structure is determined, but ideally minimal, right? But but that is generally not a deal breaker because what we are what we are seeing is, you know, there are a lot more and more people seeing the convenience they are actually using the service, right? Dhananath Fernando 33:42 So, so did you mean to say that there's a pricing formula already with the central bank on determining this transaction? Yes. So Speaker 1 33:49 generally, the customer fee, if a if a customer gets charged, that is approved by the central bank, right? And central bank actually approves a maximum fee, Dhananath Fernando 33:57 right? Speaker 1 33:58 Right. So a bank may offer it lower, lower, but cannot go above that. So that so it's only a maximum fee that is determined by central bank, so that it becomes you know financially viable to run the system and and operate the system. So that's the whole whole idea of a fee, and that fee, as long as it's not a deal breaker for somebody to use, I think it's it's it's people are people are happy to use. Dhananath Fernando 34:20 Got it. And then when it when you when you're using the system, so does it like why it's between the same banks? It's a lower rate, or it's sometimes free of charge, or does it does it is that explains the system compatibility and that investment, or what what it differs a higher cost. If it's pretty much if the Lanka Kiwa the the the Lanka pay is connected with everybody, why it's a higher cost between a different bank? Speaker 1 34:51 Yeah. So so one thing is you know when you when you deal with one bank, the funds are within that same bank, Dhananath Fernando 34:59 right? Speaker 1 35:00 So there is no fund movement, right? So plus the the if you look at the network, it's only connecting within that same bank. Dhananath Fernando 35:09 Right. Speaker 1 35:09 But when you are connecting other banks, there are telecom networks connected, intermediaries connected, fund movements. There's a settlement process. So there there there are there's a big more resources being utilised. Plus network, the technologies, other other resources are being utilised. So in that sense, to establish and maintain that there is a cost structure, then one bank, right? The other part is some other banks, if it's their own customer within the bank, they absorb some of these costs, right? And they don't pass that to the as a customer service for their own customers, Dhananath Fernando 35:41 right? Speaker 1 35:41 But then another bank providing that same service, for example, if you take the ATMs, right? The bank it costs the bank to transfer the money, keep the money, holding cost, security, all that to maintain an ATM, right? So if you are providing a service to another bank customer, somebody has to recover that cost. You know how are they? Otherwise, how are they going to maintain that? So, in that sense, it's reasonable to charge a fee because customer gets the convenience of you know you know convenience plus you know less time and you know lesser cost most likely because of the travel this thing. So, so then the customer will decide would he travel two kilometres or five kilometres to your own bank ATM and waste your time and spend that money and take there or you go to the nearest, so that that will that's a consumer choice, consumer preference, right? You can actually do that. I mean, I mean, for example, if you take you know previously sending money, there was this postal order system, right? You can go to a money order, go to a bank and get a money order and send, but that used to cost 250 rupees. You have to wait in the queue. You go to the bank physically. You go to the bank, but if you can provide that service for 25 rupees, I mean, wouldn't people shift, right? So, so, so the problem is people tend to compare this 25 rupees with zero, right? So, so in that sense, how do you actually compare that? Because electricity doesn't come to you free, water doesn't come to you free, data doesn't come to you free, telecom charges doesn't come to you free. So why only a financial transaction people asking free when everything else you are paying for it, and the providers have to pay for all these services, and you know, so how can you actually provide a service free when there is a cost structure? So I think what people need to understand is, as long as it provides convenience, and they have a choice. Consumers have a choice; they can go and wait in the line and make a payment, waste their time, right? Or do you want to pay a smaller fee, have the convenience and use that system? So I think we are seeing more and more now. For example, if you take this interbank ATM transaction, we are seeing a rapid growth. So which means people are realising the value, and they are not minding a fee because obviously the the cost of the alternative is Dhananath Fernando 38:00 more. Got it. Then also want to move to on the this QR based payments. So we have been discussing, and even in your website, moving to a cashless society is one of the main objectives. So I mean, what people would see is like okay, connecting with these Indian platforms, these UPIs, and all that. But what does it really have to happen if we were to move forward? There is a GAFPay, which I will come at the latter stage. But where? What is the role of Lanka Pay on this journey? Speaker 1 38:39 Yeah. So I think the QR is a kind of interesting story because what happened was, I mean, if you look at history of Sri Lanka, we have been two decades of cards, right? I mean, I think the demographics and the the the the the context of Sri Lanka is different, right? Because if you look at Sri Lanka, it's actually a well-banked country. If you take the population, 90% of people have bank accounts, whereas if you compare India before Aadhaar came, it was less than 20% right? So, so people did not have bank accounts, but here Sri Lanka people have bank accounts. We have issued more than 19 million debit cards, which means pretty much everybody has a debit card, and so they can actually carry out a debit card transaction. However, this this card transactions didn't take off because, as you said, the cost structure was high. So the cost structure of when you pay with a card, there's something called MDR, merchant discount rate, which is the commission charged by a bank from a former merchant, because the international cards are used and international networks are used. So if I go to a food supermarket and use my local bank's card, the money has to get transferred from my bank to the bank of that you know supermarket. Both are domestic, but when you are using international cards, the transaction gets crowded internationally. So that's why the cost structure is high. So because of that, the the banks used to charge. Two to 3% per transaction for from the transaction value. Now, for a larger supermarket or larger retail shop, this two to 3% didn't make deal break didn't break the deal. But for a small timer like a SME or small retail shop, you know, corner shop or or king coconut seller, you know, two to 3% of their profit was a big gama. Dhananath Fernando 40:22 Yeah, this is the case. Like sometimes when you go to buy a computer or a phone, if you say, "Can I pay by the car? they say, "Okay, you can pay, but there'll be a 3% or 2% addition. Otherwise, you have to go to the ATM and give it cash. Is basically the context that you are explaining. Absolutely. Speaker 1 40:40 So, so in that sense, Dhananath Fernando 40:41 but it doesn't happen at a supermarket. I mean, when you whatever the bill that you swipe the card or tap the card, so is exactly the same. So there, what Speaker 1 40:48 actually happens is larger retailers have a better bargain in power. Dhananath Fernando 40:52 Right. Speaker 1 40:53 So they bargain negotiate with the banks and get a lower rate for this commission. Dhananath Fernando 40:57 Right. Speaker 1 40:57 So sometimes it can come down to about 1.2% one and a half percent because they have large volume transaction, but for small time retailer they don't have that bargain in power. So they only option for them is if they want to accept a card, they have to they get charged two to 3% right? So so in that sense, there's an economist of scale, right? Right. So so so they are what we realised was what you know rather than saying free, is there a point where we can bring it down to where people don't feel a difference? Dhananath Fernando 41:25 Right. Speaker 1 41:26 So what we looked at was if the range is somewhere between half a percent to 1% it's it's not a deal breaker because you need to have some some some monies in the system for people to maintain and maintain the network. So that's where we actually you know put our brains together and thought, okay, so if we can reduce this to 1% right? I mean, if it can come further down, that's fine. But 1% you know, people pretty much may not feel it, right? So that's why we brought down QR to 1% card. We we actually establish alternative card to the existing cards in the market. You know Lanka Pay we co-branded with JCB International. So there's a debit and credit cards available. So if you get that card, pretty much the merchants only get charged 1% as opposed to 232 3% for their cards. QR actually 1% Now, what actually happened was during COVID as an experiment, central bank actually brought it down to half a percent for a limited period, especially to you know help the during the COVID period. However, the problem was even when we brought down to half a percent, nothing really happened to the transaction. People didn't come and jump and use that, right? So by reducing 1% to half a percent, nothing really happened to transactions. So so so what we realised was 1% is not a deal breaker. It's just that how do you increase consumer adoption has nothing to do with what case because the the what what the the the real the issue is the that that you know your your case is they are merchant trying to charge that back from customer, but the fees are actually charged from the merchant. So customer whether they use cash or other things, there's no additional fee, right? So it's not a it's it's not an issue for cost consumer adoption unless the merchant tries to pass that percentage back to the customer. So what we have really seen is that 1% or half a percent merchant doesn't pass back, right? But if it's obviously two to 3% then you know, and if it's a large enough you know value item, they will try to pass it back because they don't they don't have probably that much profit margins to manure, right? So in that sense, as long as you bring it down to a reasonable what we call MDR, Merchant Discount Rate Commission, I think the ecosystem will function, and there will be other reasons for people to start using. So one of the main reasons, so QR network was established mainly because even though we had cards in entire Sri Lanka, we have only 130,000 post terminals, and out of that 130,000 post terminals, majority are in supermarkets and large retail shops, right? So if you take the unique number of merchants covered with post terminals, probably less than 50,000, or maximum 50 to 60,000 out of millions of merchants out there. Dhananath Fernando 44:16 So you mean that post machines? We only have 130,000. 130,000 Speaker 1 44:21 Entire country, so again not unique, right? Because supermarkets, each supermarket has about 10 or. Dhananath Fernando 44:27 So if we have like 10 at one supermarket, so that means that Speaker 1 44:31 out of there, 130,000, right? So if you take the unique merchants, as I said, 50 to 60,000 covered, Dhananath Fernando 44:35 right? Speaker 1 44:36 The entire country. So what about the rest of the you know hundreds of 1000s of merchants? Even if the customer has a card, they can't use. So they need to have a system. So one of two problems: one was this commission in the two to 3% the merchants were not willing to accept. The second one, cost of a device, because the cost of the device merchant has to bear. Especially the SMEs, they can't. You know, it used to be about 50,000. Now with the foreign exchange. Going up, it's now cost more than 100,000. So small time retailer is not willing to pay for that. So they didn't have a post terminal. Customer has a card. You can't use. So we need did a system where zero cost to the merchant, zero upfront cost to the merchant. Can somebody pay? So then what we saw was in in Sri Lanka when we did market research. We saw nearly 70% of the household has mobile phones thanks to COVID. So customer already has a smartphone. How do we enable a digital payment to merchant? So that's why we introduce QR, which is just a sticker. So that sticker contains merchants' banking credentials. So if you have a smartphone and an app, you just scan the QR. It provides where to send the money, right? And and you know you have to say 1000 rupees, 1000 type 1000 rupees. The app knows where to send the money, so the money gets transferred from bank to bank. So it basically provided a system for customer merchants at zero cost, but for customers to make a payment using their smartphone, so that actually bridged that gap of SMEs or MSMEs having to have a device and pay for a device and also ink a two to 3% commission because Lanka QR commission structure was brought down to 1% and and they have no other cost structure to incur and facilitate a digital transaction without cash. Dhananath Fernando 46:24 Okay, now the people may not know how to pay on this QR. I mean, people know probably most of them know how to use a fintech app like Helapay. They know because they already the bank account is connected. But I think probably many people have seen these QR codes, and there are QR codes for everything now everywhere. So how does it get connected to a? I mean, does it through the bank app, or could you explain to the benefit of our audience? So Speaker 1 46:49 what we actually did was because in many countries, what we have seen is the for payment they have multiple QR standards. Now even in India there are Bharat QR and UPI QR and many. So in Sri Lanka, we from day one we said one standard for Sri Lanka, which is Lanka QR. So if you want to make a payment in Sri Lanka, only you can use Lanka QR. There's no other QRs available. So customers is Lanka QR. You can make a payment. So Lanka QR is for making a payment. There can be QRs to you know identify locations and other things, but Lanka QR is to make a payment. So if you see Lanka QR and your app says it supports Lanka QR, basically what you do is you option is there. It just scans. Once it scans on the app itself, it shows who's the merchant. You know that detail. So it's just basically simply entering the amount and making a payment, right? Dhananath Fernando 47:45 But when you do that, your through your phone, your bank app has to be connected to that. Yes. Speaker 1 47:50 So, so bank if the bank has a QR payment option, it's already connected, right? So already, always, always there will be Lanka QRO, QR payment option, right? So once the QR payment option is there, which means it's actually connected to the network, right? To facilitate a payment. Right. So the the the difference here is, you know, most of the banking mobile apps, you cannot do it on a internet banking on your browser, you know, on your phone. It has to be a mobile app, whether it's a banking, internet banking, mobile banking app, or a fintech app. So they will have the QR option where you can actually scan and make a payment. So there is another option. If the merchant has a device, then they provide the QR on that device, which also has the amount built in. So then the customer doesn't even need to type the amount, the amount also it's actually when you scan the amount also comes. So all the customer issues they pay, but if it's a physical, you know, on a cardboard pasted lanka QR, once you scan, you will have to enter the amount because that dynamically it can't generate the amount. So that's the difference in in that static can what we call static and dynamic QR. Dhananath Fernando 49:01 Got it. So, what if someone would argue like only having Lanka QR doesn't it creating like a monopoly? Because if you like the the fintech caps, like they provide a lot of diversity. Probably they have different bargaining systems and different offers. So why not open for diversity. What blocks you to? So Speaker 1 49:22 yeah. So there is a difference. So Lanka QR is to ensure interoperability. So for a customer, multiple choices. So QR is only for merchants to accept the payment, right? So in that sense, having one standard, because otherwise, would how would the customer know whether to carry this QR or this QR or this QR, right? As a consumer, we wouldn't know. So we wanted to remove that you know barrier of confusing the customer. So when the customer goes and sees Lanka QR, doesn't matter whether that QR belongs to your bank. So anybody can issue a QR as long as it follows the Lanka QR standard. So. Any bank, any financial institution, or even fintech, they can issue a cure, right? So it's it's completely interoperable, you know. It's democratised. So only thing is it follows one standard so that not to confuse the customer. But from an app and others, you can use any app as long as only thing is it it creates readability. So the main purpose why one standard to ensure that complete interoperability. What actually happens in other countries? You can scan one QR, it works. Another QR, it doesn't work because those are not interoperable. But here everything is interoperable, so the consumer has a choice, right? Only only thing is every bank issues issuing a QR follows one standard. Dhananath Fernando 50:42 Okay, got it. And coming back to the rest of the other services on this cashless, cashless transaction world. So what now? Where are we as at now? Because there were, I mean, multiple suggestions. People are suggesting to ban, like you know, cancel 5000 rupee note and so many suggestions to move to a cashless society, and also for taxation purposes, so many suggestions. Now, since someone who operates this entire network, how do you see this is moving, and how the payment. I saw. I think the the GovPay have mentioned. If I remember right, about 20 million transactions was done in one month. If I remember right, if the numbers were right. So how does it move forward, and what are the next steps, and which direction is it? So Speaker 1 51:37 I think when we are when we are looking at numbers, we have to be careful in the context where you are. Now we are very quick to jump and compare with other countries, but when you are comparing with other countries, you have to compare the context as well, right? For example, if you are comparing with India, first you have to see, look at what is their population, and what is our population. So 22 million versus one and a half billion, right? What is their GDP? Their GDP is $1.7 trillion versus what is our GDP? Bearly 100 million, 100 billion dollars, right? So what is the financial result of a financial transaction? Is based on economic activity, which is based on GDP. So when you are comparing transaction volumes and values, you always should compare with your GDP because that transactions will happen as a result of economic activity, right? So when you compare in Sri Lankan terms, last year 2024, our systems, all our systems facilitated 34 trillion rupees worth of transactions, which is more than GDP of Sri Lanka, right? Our real-time payment system facilitated 30 17 trillion rupees worth of transaction, which is more than 50% of GDP. So, so I mean, whether we are at the top, but we are, I think we are at somewhere. I mean, obviously there is room to grow. So it's not that people are not using it; it's actually using may not be for certain purposes, right? And if you take government government payments, actually before GovPay, which was launched this year, we already facilitated payments to like you know eight departments, which is customs, Inland Revenue, Ports Authority, SLSI, BO, and others, right? Last year we facilitated nearly 2 trillion worth of revenue collection using digital channels, right? So, so, so, so, so I think it's it's it's just that where we need to crack is the retail space. I think this is what is not propagated is is SME base. So the SME base had multiple resources, so we had deployed. So I couldn't tell you this thing. We had only 130,000 POS terminals, but we have deployed unique 400,000 merchants with QR. So now we have brought in that entire merchant base into QR, who does not have post machines, right? So which means they have the capability of accepting digital payments. However, we have not seen adoption of making payments using QR. It so people like to attribute it to commission. I personally, I don't think so. I think it's multiple different reasons. One is obviously fear of taxes, right? So because most of these SMEs are not in the tax network, net. So they they fear once they come into digital, their transactions are recorded, and probably they become liable for taxation, right? So so so I think that is that is where we have to be very careful as well as creative how we bring them on board. Just because a customer having a smartphone wanting to transact may not necessarily will be facilitated because there's no option provided by right. So I think some other countries have been created. You know, for example, you know, to address this taxation, I'm not saying should not be obviously taxes should be charged. Maybe you give a lower tax rate if you do the trans. Digitally, as opposed to cash, right? So then it encourages people to move digitally than discouraging saying, "Hey, I I will get caught to tax net, right? So I think we need to be you know positive and progressive in how do you take this forward by looking at being creative, than you know you know trying to find ways where it just stops people from doing. I think that is yeah. We need to get a balance of how do you drive adoption, and you know, and and and so sometimes we look at the wrong places for solutions. Dhananath Fernando 55:33 Okay, and also want to understand on since okay, I understand the the payment platforms are like you are, it runs on your Langkapay platform. Now people always have other concerns about this, you know, e-signatures and even KYCs because probably you have multiple banks accounts by from different banks. But most of the CEOs and these retailers, entrepreneurs, what they do is like sign checks and signing documents day in and day out. So, is there a solution under your platform to do that, or is the digital signatures? Is it is something comes under under your purview, or is it a separate problem that we have to discuss altogether? Speaker 1 56:16 No, actually, we we also run the digital signature certification authority. That's the only one available in Sri Lanka. So actually, even though people are not aware, they are already using digital signatures. For example, you know when you are sending salaries, that that files that take the transfers are digitally signed. So already digital signatures are there. All these checks when they send you know interbank checks, those are digitally signed. So the infrastructure is being used. People don't know that. That then when I talked about you know attaching your bank account to an app, so they are actually digital signature is real time issued to the device. Custom actually signs a mandate because because what happens is when you have a bank account you you have a physical mandate with your bank but when you go and use a third party app with another bank you don't have that mandate so we have enabled a system where digital signature is used by customer they sign a mandate giving the authorization to you know debit the account through a electronic mandate, so that the system. So we have seen more than 2 million devices have digital signatures and this capability already in the market. So so so people are actually using the system. So what we have also in terms of document signing. So that is the biggest area. I think we we need more and more adoption. So one of the things that we did was when we worked with customs during, especially during COVID time, you know. So while we automated the payments, the document submission was a problem. So what we did was we enable traders to digitally sign the documents and upload it from their office or wherever directly to ASICOTA system, and from their side they can validate the digital signatures and accept that as a valid electronic document. One of the problems with electronic documents is those can be tampered easily, right? So once you put a digital signature, it becomes tamper-proof. So if you tamper with the document after putting the digital signature, the receiver would know that the document has been altered based on technology, Dhananath Fernando 58:22 right? Speaker 1 58:22 So, so in that sense, it it it ensures tamper proof. Also, it it creates a record, and and also it creates so it can minimise corruption and all the other things because now technology will ensure that you know transactions are secure, transactions are recorded, plus documents are also tamper proof. So once both these coming together, I think it creates that ecosystem where you know you you can go for a complete digital solution with also minimising some of these malpractices as well. Dhananath Fernando 58:53 Got it. I think we are coming to the final stage of the conversation. The other main concern is using these digital payments cards off on the cyber security and the data security point of view. What is the solution or what is the assurance that you could provide? Since you run the main operating platform, what are the developments? Speaker 1 59:17 Yeah. So, so I think in in terms of cyber security, we have. I mean, in terms of you take the total number of incidents, we the the cyber security related incidents have been fairly low. What we have seen are in terms of most scams and social engineering type of incidents, right? Where what actually happens is people target the fraudsters target people and extract their information and use that information to take money from accounts, right? Which is basically scams like what we call OTP scams and others, right? So we have seen people sharing their OTP, which is the password to use an app. You know, with the. Parties and and what they do is they take the OTP and you know clean the account right so so in that sense I think it's a it's more of a awareness issue than a security issue, but certainly there is cyber security there so what we have done is we have actually a division called FinCERT Financial Sector Computer Security Incident Response Team, which is one of our divisions actually that functions under central bank. What they do is they work proactively with banks, and and provide you know support to make sure that the systems are secure. The second one is if some incident happens, they actually quickly work with them to you know close the gaps if if they are there, and also they have jointly established standards like baseline security standard for banks, so they need to have a minimum baseline security which has certain governance structure. They have also established baseline security standard for mobile payments. So in that sense, even a third-party app, they had to adhere to this baseline security standard for mobile payments, and they had to get verified by a third-party audit company that the app certifies; otherwise, they can't connect to the network. So there are basic security mechanisms established. Obviously, you know the fraudsters are smarter, you know, than sometimes you know some of us. But but the fact of the matter is, you can only minimise. So and also in terms of our infrastructure, we are mandatory following international standards so that the data is encrypted, data is masked, right? Even some of our people, most of our people don't have access, and access is also provide need to know need to know basis. I mean, some of us who doesn't need that data access, we don't have that. So it's based on roles and these things. But those are also under PCI. Even people's police records are checked. So there's a there's a stringent process that international process that is followed to make sure on one side security, other one is the data protection, right? So so because the you know some of these banks and you know even some of us handle personal information. So those need to be safeguarded and make sure that you know minimum people will have access, need to know basis, as well as the data is secure. So all these precautions are there, but still, obviously, you know, you know, well the world is moving, the security incidences happen, but I think we have taken a lot of precautions to to minimise some of these with the banks and and central bank, and I think I mean it's a balance, fine balance. Only problem is you can put more and more and more controls, then people will will not be able to use an app, right? If you ask for three four passwords, right, to protect that, customers will not use. So they would want like simple thumbprint or a retina scan, you know, type of security, which is seamless security, right? So, so that is where the world needs to move. You need to have enough security, but you need to have also seamless nature because otherwise you will have every technology, but people will not use. So, I think it's how do you strike that balance? So that is that is a challenge. That is a challenge with the changing threat landscape of cybersecurity and other areas, but how do you bridge that balance and also makes you adoption? Because if you don't have adoption, no point having security. So, so it's a fine balance. Dhananath Fernando 1:03:10 Got it. And my final question, I think people the other complaint always people have is no PayPal in Sri Lanka. Sometimes the other Other payment apps like it may be the Apple Pay. There are certain apps doesn't really work here. Is it comes under your purview because you since you mentioned that you partnered Lanka Pay partnered with Alipay and other platforms. Is it a delay from your end or is it like those companies who really have to make a decision? Just explain what is the context here. Speaker 1 1:03:43 Yeah. So so PayPal doesn't really come under our purview, but but we got involved because obviously some other, especially freelancers and others, couldn't get the money using PayPal because people outside prefer to send money using PayPal. So so it's a very very simple. There's no regulatory issue. It's actually PayPal is not interested because when you when they assist the market when they because they are U.S. company and they have to go through OFEC regulations and you know paperwork to set up a subsidiary or something in a country because when they enable payments in a country they set up a subsidiary right because they have a you know no questions asked refund policy and all that so in that sense to set up operation, it cost them an arm and a leg, whereas they have not seen the business potential because our market is small. I'm compact, but even say if you go to India, massive market. So, so actually, even central bank has tried many times to entice them. They have not been interested. So, so in terms of PayPal not being here, that's the reason. Not that any restrictions or anything, so we are actually looking at different alternatives. I mean, there is Stripe, there are other other payment mechanisms. So if PayPal is not interested, then we need to look at. So so it's matter of I think the the market. So also those companies look at the statistics in a country. Now, for example. Most of them are interested if our credit card penetration is like 40% Sri Lanka credit cards only 2 million credit cards, right? So it's a very low percentage. So some of these, you know, companies gauge the market opportunity by looking at at the statistics of that country as well, demographics of that country, and if they feel if they if they below their threshold, they may not be interested. So we need to look at all alternatives. So that's why, even though PayPal is not there, then we need to. I mean, even if we tried, we tried for several years, we couldn't get them come on to come in. So let's find alternatives where people can start using. So that's where we have actually moved on that side. You know, how do we facilitate these payments for people to accept payments using other channels, and and make sure that the the transactions happen. So we may have some some limitations, but I think still overall, if we if we if you look at an alternative and provide that same service, I think it'll probably serve the same purpose. Dhananath Fernando 1:05:58 And the other payment platforms like Apple Pay, or is it is it a restriction, or is there a legal barrier, or like anything that there is Speaker 1 1:06:08 no restriction? Just Apple Pay need to enable in Sri Lanka using the entire ecosystem, financial ecosystem. Same Dhananath Fernando 1:06:14 as PayPal. I mean, Speaker 1 1:06:16 PayPal is something different. PayPal is more like remittance kind of issue, Apple Pay is basically you know using your your card, whatever card that is issued in Sri Lanka. Only thing is that those rails have not been enabled because obviously even even Apple Pay you know for them to directly offer here they may not have seen potential. But I think hopefully it'll come eventually. Dhananath Fernando 1:06:41 Channa, anything else that you want to add? Which I did not ask. Any final comments? Speaker 1 1:06:48 Yes. So I think GovPay yes is is something that is the is the the latest. So there, what we realised was we can digitise the entire economy, but if you leave the government out, then that's a huge missing part. So the problem we saw was we actually I said we digitise about 710, eight to 10 departments who have systems. So what we saw was most of these government departments don't have a system, right? So how do you facilitate digital payment to such departments? So that is where what we thought was how do we bring them on board? Since they don't have a system, can we actually give the customers an option to make a payment? So that's where we were thought. Okay, customers have smartphones. Customers have some app, whether it's internet banking, mobile banking, or and customers have a physical invoice. For example, to pay my rates to my municipal council, I get a physical invoice, right? And it has some basic information which is used to facilitate a payment. So what we did was basically created a system using whatever app you have, and use that information in the physical form. Some information is put in as a form. You enter that. You make a payment. The backend, the system. Transcribed by https://otter.ai