Dhananath Fernando  00:00
Dr. Michel Brooks, welcome to Advocata Studio.

Speaker 1  00:06
Thank you. It's lovely to be here.

Dhananath Fernando  00:08
Today we are going to discuss about human security and national security. For an economic think tank, one may think this is quite unusual, but ultimately, when economies prosper, national security acts a pivotal role, and I think as a country we went through it multiple times. Of course, we had a 30-year-long war, and then we had in even in in recently we had the Easter attack. So it's important. We thought it's important to discuss about this issue at the same time. Every time when we try to speak about a economic reform, the main argument is it's the national security. There's a threat to national security. So we thought to have an expert like you to discuss about how actually countries think about national security and the human security, since it's actually it's a concern. But how to really think about it? So first, tell us a little bit about yourself. We are what we all know is you are a counterterrorism expert from the UK. But I'm quite concerned when I'm providing introductions to a security expert. So tell us a little bit about for our audience a little bit about yourself. So what work that you have done in the UK, so then we can get the conversation going, Dr. Bruce.

Speaker 1  01:25
My work has centred around two aspects of security, which has been more national security orientated. So I train the police and military on counterterrorism, emerging threats, and how to respond. So you've got the kind of horizon scanning and preparing for the next threat, as well as the response and the plan for that, which involves multiple agencies in most countries. And I've also worked in disaster management, so I am based in the UK. My PhD is in the UK, and I am an academic. But I've worked in other countries as well for long-term contracts to support them with their. When you mean when you say

Dhananath Fernando  02:14
disaster management, is it mainly the disaster related to the national, like the terrorist threats, or is it? It could even it could be sort of a natural disaster. Yeah, I mean

Speaker 1  02:26
you're right. Terrorism does become a disaster quite often. However, no, with natural disasters as well. So the reason is that the military are often required to respond to disasters, and especially when it's a rapid onset disaster, the military have resources and training. They have huge potential and capability to support the people, and we we see that in Sri Lanka as well during the tsunami. It was helicopters that were required. We need the helicopter operator. We need them to be able to land in very difficult environments and under difficult climatic conditions. So yeah, so the military have to be trained how to hold hands with civilian organisations like the International Red Cross, etc. and working with that type of organisation is not easy for the military, who are a top-down hierarchical organisation, and they're not used to working with kind of those types of people. And so, you know, where their place is, they want to know when they turn up at the disaster. What's their place? What do they do? They need that direction because that's what they they're used to. They're used to directions. Whereas if you have an organisation like Save the Children or the UN or you know one of the other major NGOs, they will turn up and they will figure out the problem. They will reach out to the community. They will find a location that seems suitable, they will set up a volunteer reception centre, and they will start moving forward through that. So, teaching those people to work together is critical because every second counts in a disaster. So,

Dhananath Fernando  04:15
from what I gathered, was it's really important because in any country, when there's a disaster, it could be man-made or a natural disaster. The potential of military to work and act on those incidents is quite important. Is it is it the same in in most of the countries that you have worked, or are there any other mechanisms that they have developed to engage? How how do you look at as a defence expert or a security expert on on predominantly depending on the military? I'm just trying to understand whether it's the same because we are also seeing it's the Sri Lankan armed forces, air force or the navy who comes to the forefront when there's a even national. Is it the same in in other parts of the world?

Speaker 1  05:03
The thing about it is that in other parts of the world, the police take on a much bigger role and have much greater training and resources. So they they do have their own helicopters, they do have their own equipment. So in actual fact, even in counterterrorism in the UK, for example, it's run entirely by the police. So I train the police. I train the counterterrorism command units for that. In other countries, it's actually the military. So Sri Lanka is an example of that. It has been the military that has been at the front of operations, and in disaster management, countries like, for example, the USA, up until extremely recently, had FEMA, which is a world-renowned organisation, the Federal Emergency Management, and they were an organisation that were national, and they were fed by the federal government, and so they responded to disasters. You have to remember, America has disasters all the time, because it lives in a very active climatic zone. So it's hurricanes and wildfires and all sorts, coast to coast. They they're having lots of problems, you know. So they have a big system there, and they also have a community system, so people in the community can train not just in first aid but in disaster management. Running volunteer reception centres, they can have lots of disaster training, how to evacuate people, etc. Because first on the ground are the general public? They are the real first responders, and so training those people who live in every community, who know where people live. Sometimes they're very remote; they're in forests and things. So they will say, "Oh yes, mr. and mrs. Smith, they live up that canyon, and we need to get up there because they're really old and they're going to need help getting out. They have that knowledge that any incoming military and police force may not know. So the UAE, for example, where I worked for a while training their military, they also put that into operation, where they directly copied that example and they started to develop a community-based response organisation. The UK has it as well for ambulance. They have first responders in the community that will get within two minutes of a 999 call to the problem area. You know, it could be a baby that's got gone blue. There's seconds before it's too late, and so having community responders gets people there quickly, get the patient ready for the ambulance service to arrive, do everything possible in that time. So yeah, there around the world there are

Dhananath Fernando  07:57
different models,

Speaker 1  07:58
different models and different scaled up versions, and I think Sri Lanka has a lot of opportunity to work on things like community-based responders for disasters.

Dhananath Fernando  08:08
So, did I? I mean, did I gather it right? So, when you say it's the humans, I mean, the human security and the national security, you have to think of all these aspects, like having it could be the military, or it could be the police, or it could be a community-based organisation. To think on that aspect, like how to respond faster. It could be a terrorist incident. It could be a natural disaster. But having that, having that ecosystem, is a part of this entire security game. Did I understand it right?

Speaker 1  08:40
Yeah, that is a part of the human security aspect. Human security is something that we didn't really consider as part of national security. It's always been something that we're aware of, and you know the UN has written lots of conventions that people have signed up to about what are basic human needs, and human security encompasses those basic human needs of food, water, shelter, but also encompasses things like access to justice, access equally to the labour market, access to education for everybody, these are all parts of human security, and they relate to national security because whenever we've had a major national security crisis, it has been preceded by a human security problem, and you know we do lessons learned whenever there's a big incident, every country does it. And when you start tracing back, when you start walking back the incident, right at the beginning, is a human security problem that we could have addressed, that we could have dealt with, and that would have stopped the incident decimating the. One of me, you know, taking us back 10 years in development, we could have stopped. So these are why lessons learned are important, and it's why now countries are mainstreaming human security into their thinking and attention and funding for national security concerns, because you'll never get secure borders if the people inside the country are not secure. We've learned that,

Dhananath Fernando  10:33
yeah,

Speaker 1  10:33
haven't we? And I think you know, in the last 20 years, every major country of the world has learned that lesson, and in a globalised transnational community, even families that are transnational now, most families are transnational, and they also have connections in other countries, other influences. Sometimes they can be extremist. Our borders in Sri Lanka are not the only concern for national security.

Dhananath Fernando  11:03
I think that's a valid point. The reason, actually, I I was planning to come to that extent in Sri Lanka, especially even the the reason why I want to touch on the natural disasters as well as to come on the national security because most of our economic activity is also dependent on on both factors because if you have a drought or excessive rain, generally your economic growth is very low. At the same time, our tourism industry also, after a country which has gone through default, you depend quite a lot on for dollars on tourism industry, and that's very sensitive for terrorist risk. And the point that you brought in, like now, also we all have quite diverse families with different members living in different parts of the world, family connections. It's not. I mean, the it's easily get to the border if your people inside the country is not protected. I mean, if that human security angle is not assured, you really cannot assure it at the border. And Sri Lanka being an island, but I'm sure when you have when you share borders at the land, it probably becomes more complicated. But getting onto the thinking of an on an academic point on the national security and human security. Is there a way that we should think about it? Way in the sense, is there a structure or are there any key components that we need to think about on human security and national security altogether? Because even in our budget, the main expenditure item after the interest payments for the money that we have borrowed next is the defence budget, and I'm sure in the U.S. and this conversation is there on the defence budget. But is there a way? How should we think? I mean, is there an academic work or like that we can refer to? How should we think about it on on these two components?

Speaker 1  12:57
Well, listen. Let me give you the example of the military. I'm a military instructor. This is what they do when the military are deployed into a place, whether it's within their own country or overseas. Somebody is responsible to make sure what are they eating today, right? So that job doesn't fall to a low-ranking person; it falls to a high-ranking officer. Right. It's a big priority. What will they eat? Even if they're deployed into the corner of Colombo somewhere, somebody has to go and deliver food to them. Okay, that is a big responsibility. So, likewise, you you can see that the military are also very practised at their human security. Where are our soldiers going to live? Right, they have a spouse and a child. Where will they live? Where will that child go to school? We see defence schools everywhere. That's why defence hospitals. Why? Because they're looking after the human security of their people. Military, you know, organisations exist in a bubble. They have their own law. They have all sorts, you know, but that's what they do, and that's because human security is so crucial to them that if their people can't work because they're hungry or because they're distracted because they they they don't have a place for their family to live, their dignity has been destroyed because they can't afford to educate their child or their their wife can't go to prenatal appointments at the hospital because they don't have money. You know that's their dignity going downhill. Well, that's going to affect the way they fight. That's going to affect the security of the nation. So it's critical. Likewise, in the civilian sphere, we have to think in the same way. The criticality of human security is absolute, right? And in my work, which is counterterrorism, I can tell you, without any shadow of a doubt, that lowering and allowing human security to lower opens the door for terrorism,

Dhananath Fernando  14:57
right?

Speaker 1  14:58
Every single time. And it's happened in every single conflict that we see, even today.

Dhananath Fernando  15:06
How does it? Can you? I understand the connection, but can you go take us one step further? Why, when there are gaps in the human security front, like what's the step by step process or the connection? How they basically how the terrorism triggers exactly. Of course, we all know when you have like unemployment, then people you know look for different options. But on a more defence point of view, how the analytics work or like how that actually how it actually happens.

Speaker 1  15:38
I'll tell you. So, for example, we saw it in the UK, and it was astonishing for government. They are frequently astonished because they frequently have no relationship with the people, and so they're frequently surprised by things. And you know, why would people that have been born in the UK to immigrant families, but born in the UK, had every different possible thing that they needed, provided education, free healthcare, you name it. Turn to terror, and when people feel disenfranchised from the state because they feel that the state is not protecting them, in actual fact they rely on the state to do certain things for them, almost in a parental way. Now, people shouldn't feel bad about that. That's what we pay them the big bucks for in government. It's a it's a really hard job. I wouldn't want to do it. Okay, it's a tough job to do, and that's why they get the power, the nice car, and the good money. Right. That's why. So when people feel disenfranchised from the state and they feel like they're not being protected. They, in the in in today's world, are on the internet, and they are talking to other people who are feeling the same way. You know, humans get together in packs, things that bind us. We get together if we like cricket, we like rugby, you know, we like a specific online game, we we meet other people, so you start to meet other people who are also disenchanted with the situation. Easily, you only have to post something on Facebook, and 50 people will reply saying, "Yeah, me too, me too, absolutely, that's how I feel. Suddenly, you've got a community building. When that happens, terrorist organisations are deliberately and intentionally trawling the internet, looking for those people. They are not accidentally coming across them. They are searching for them, and they're very, very good at it. They've built algorithms. They've built keywords. When they start talking, they pretend to be other people. You mean the terrorist organisations that

Dhananath Fernando  17:45
trace the algorithm, and when people have these conversations, they actively reach out to them.

Speaker 1  17:50
Yes, they actively reach out to them through very, very mundane things like a science magazine. You know, there were there were science magazine with just engineers chatting away about things, and they reached out to people like that. Why they actually do need engineers in the terrorist organisations? They're looking for people like that.

Dhananath Fernando  18:14
That's that's quite the

Speaker 1  18:16
most boring people, you know. Like I don't know. I hate to say, I know that people will be angry with me, but people that fly planes and interested in planes and stuff, you know, well, actually, they really they really needed those before 911. They were out there looking for them, you know, people that were interested, people that they could put into the USA to train how to fly an aircraft.

Dhananath Fernando  18:38
That's that's that's interesting because, I mean, it it connects quite well with Sri Lankan story. I mean, the LTTE they had aircrafts. I mean, they had an army, navy, and air force. Army, navy, and air force. Even if you look at the Easter attack, I mean, these the suicided suicided bombers were coming from somewhat, I would say, quite privileged families. They have educated, so it's quite interesting to know that these conversations happen in a subtle way that your terrorist organisations very much

Speaker 1  19:11
so, and where you have things like the Easter bombings, for example, there was that religious component there, you know, and so bonding over something like religion, which is you know a peaceful thing in your life, it's something that brings great peace to your life, right? And so bonding over something like that, and then starting to build a picture of dissent of why it's nice, but it's not that nice because of the government, yes. Oh, it's not that nice because of the other religions in the country, you know. And so that's how it works. They're not out there just accidentally getting getting in touch with terrorists. These people are looking for them. They are out there. That is their job, and they're really, really good at it. And they can reach out to your children very, very easily. You know, and I've given a lot of talks in school because my kids were also in school.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai