Dhananath Fernando 00:12 Welcome, welcome to another episode, Economics with Dr. Sarath Rajapatiran. As you know, and if you are following us, you know we have been discussing about leading economists in the 21st century. We spoke about Professor Deepak Lal to Max Cordon to many other leading economists in the 21st century. And today we are going to discuss about Professor Ian Little, who was also a good friend of Dr. Sarath Rajpatiranda. Welcome back, Dr. Rajapatiranath, and today we are going to discuss about your good friend Professor Ian Little. Though his name says Little, his contribution to the world is not not Little, and he was a leading economist in the 20th century, and you had the you had been lucky to associate with him, and also associate with his friends and students and everybody. First, tell us, Doctor Ajavarina, how did you meet him, and what was the where the where is the story begin? Begin, yeah. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 01:15 Begin. He comes to the World Bank and invited to come. He was not employed by them seriously. Anyway, we were not interested. He was a leading provider at Oxford University, and this very exclusive group called Groupon Nafield, Nafield College. There, all the good economists go there. This is at the Dhananath Fernando 01:37 Oxford University of Oxford. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 01:39 University, Oxford University. Yeah, yeah, and so then it turns out that we were going to do a very big study on developing countries, and so we got him there, and he's a he's a very modest person, very accomplished, but very modest. He didn't like to give long lectures, for example. Dhananath Fernando 02:06 Right. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 02:07 Students, students were scared of him because he's a very nice man, but he wanted to be very clear to the point. He writes very clearly. Short sentences, ideas are brought to you very very well, so he's a great man. Dhananath Fernando 02:26 So, what was if you were to if you were to consider like his main contributions, how would you rate them? What are the main contributions? First of all, he Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 02:37 challenged his his thesis advisor. Dhananath Fernando 02:42 Uh huh. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 02:43 because he wrote this later became a book a critic on neoclassical economics big thing he criticised it but only he could do it so well and the supervisor promptly said I am not going to surprise you and he went and got his same Oxford, but another professor. Dhananath Fernando 03:06 Right. So this was his advisor was John Wall. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 03:10 Yes, just the John Wall of the city. Memory is great, right? Yes. John Wall. Actually, John Wall came to Sri Lanka with a group of seven economists in the 1957 58. I have a paper running. Right, paper by visiting visiting economists, leading economists of the day. Right, so one of them, and he wasn't there. Dhananath Fernando 03:33 He wasn't there. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 03:34 He was not there, but he followed Sri Lanka. Dhananath Fernando 03:38 Right. So the the the end it was one. one I mean highlights of his career is he challenged his own supervisor about critiquing about the neoclassical economics. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 03:53 Yeah, neoclassical economics. Neoclassical Dhananath Fernando 03:56 economics. Yes. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 03:57 Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 03:57 And that's mainly also on the welfare. The second Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 04:00 one on the welfare is the second point. Second Dhananath Fernando 04:02 point is on the welfare side. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 04:03 Welfare because the people were not measuring welfare properly, and because he's a very smart cookie, he developed a way of using international trade as a guide to to evaluate welfare. Is one group of people better compared to another group over time? He developed the best way of looking at it. Very simple, very clear, and everybody uses it today. And the other thing related to that was that he liked very much to work with developing countries. India was his favourite, Dhananath Fernando 04:40 right, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 04:41 and they liked him also, and he was also very much open, very helpful. But he had very little time for the people who talk about planning, Dhananath Fernando 04:50 right? Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 04:51 Yeah, he thought this is waste of time. Dhananath Fernando 04:53 Okay, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 04:53 and so a lot of people whom he influenced. A lot of people, like the names that we had discussed earlier a few times ago, most of them are students, Dhananath Fernando 05:07 right? Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 05:07 Even little, you know, older people. Max Dhananath Fernando 05:10 Gordon and everyone. Max Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 05:12 Coddin, Master student was a co co worker, right? Max was older, you know. Right. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 05:17 So okay. So then you you mentioned he had an he had an interest in developing world. So, how did he engage with the government, or was he only a professor, or like how was yeah Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 05:33 his ideas are much more well powerful ideas, and he would engage the governor, but he's better at developing framework to look at problems. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 05:44 In terms of when it comes to welfare, since you mentioned and you know Sri Lanka is also struggling this with this for a long time. We had the Jana Savi, Ado Samurdi, and Avastha Summer. In terms of welfare, what was his like? Was there a particular model that we can learn something about? Yeah, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 06:01 he he cleaned it up for everybody to understand. Right. When you say a country's population gone to area better welfare than before, he provided the way of looking at it. He didn't look at the micro things like you know, but on a larger scale. Dhananath Fernando 06:21 Right. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 06:21 He favoured it. He worked a lot on India, Dhananath Fernando 06:24 right? Right. And you also mentioned that he took trade as like a guiding principle. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 06:30 That's right. That's so how it because finally you have to have something to free trade, Dhananath Fernando 06:35 right? Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 06:36 Free trade without any Dhananath Fernando 06:37 restrictions. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 06:38 Restrictions on it. So that is what you used as a framework, or the bottom line in which you developed the country welfare has increased. Dhananath Fernando 06:48 And what else? Like where did he study? And you met him when you got him to the consultancy work at the World Bank. From little understood. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 06:58 Yeah, by that time, he is world famous. World famous, and he he wanted to come because you know he had friends in the bank, and he he enjoyed working with us. He's a very nice man. Never never harsh in his criticism. You say you know you say something. He said, "I am wonder. I told him once about liberalising economy, he said, "Okay, I'll give you a nice story. So we go to a little island with a lot of stones around, and you do a big deal, and you say, "We liberalise your economy. What does it really mean? Tell me. Dhananath Fernando 07:35 Right. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 07:36 Very difficult to say what it is, right? He really challenges you That way, yeah. And other thing I want to say, Vita want to say, during the war, his father was a major general. Dhananath Fernando 07:49 Right. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 07:49 Yeah, he lived in a 24 room house. Dhananath Fernando 07:52 Okay. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 07:54 That's not not to be included. Only later, after he passed away, we found that he had 24 room house. He was very modest. But once he came all the way, flew all the way back from England. He was getting married for the second time. Dhananath Fernando 08:10 Right. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 08:11 First wife died of cancer, and so he wanted to buy. He's very well dressed, you know. He's he wanted to buy the best fruit available, and he want to show me whether I approve Dhananath Fernando 08:25 it. Right. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 08:26 So I laughing and said, "But who am I to approve your senior? So, and Dhananath Fernando 08:32 from from from the conversations that we had, I mean, people like Deepak Lal, Richard Cooper, all Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 08:38 his students, all Dhananath Fernando 08:39 his students. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 08:40 I'm indirectly, although I didn't follow his class, I followed him in the sense I was not in his class, I was not at Oxford, but I have very close relationship with him, and I could always call him and as Ian. The thing is that I treated him as a friend. Dhananath Fernando 08:57 Right, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 08:57 lot of people was scared of him. I was I I he was a friend. That's it. So I would ask, so what to do? Give me give me little time, and I'll get back to you, and he'll give you very nice help. You know, very helpful to people. When Dhananath Fernando 09:11 it comes to his approach, Doctor Ajavathan, in a sense, you mentioned he has a he had an interest on developing countries. Was it mainly a trade approach, or whether it was like a or like you know rationalising or like having the market forces on the welfare front. What was his approach? Was it unique from country to country, or do you have any stories, recollection of Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 09:34 no? His main point is that first to give a very good definition of welfare, not actually measuring it for you know particular purpose, but what do you mean by welfare type of thing? Dhananath Fernando 09:45 Right, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 09:45 because these questions were raised by earlier economists, famous economists. Dhananath Fernando 09:49 Right, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 09:50 so he make it more practical, so to look at. And the second thing is that he will go to India and look at the system. Why is there. Question you ask why aren't they growing fast? Dhananath Fernando 10:03 Right, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 10:03 and he would give three or four reasons. They are very right on the wall, but is the wall is always correct? And and also he would say this is what we have to do. I mean, very simple, very clear-minded. Yeah, the during the war, he was asked to fly like normal weapon, normal casts, and they have favour during the war. They used to during the war, and he was asked to try to fly them with wings on them. Dhananath Fernando 10:36 Right, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 10:37 and he died, but he did fly then, and he got what's called distinctive flying rocks for his work that he did during during the war. Dhananath Fernando 10:46 Right. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 10:47 So, well-rounded person. Dhananath Fernando 10:51 And that's your memory about Professor Ian Little. Anything else that that we missed, or anything else that you think that our audience should know about your good friend Ian. Yeah, he Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 11:03 he he led a team which I was also involved about what is the call the name of the book that is they wrote also boom crisis and adjustment. Dhananath Fernando 11:17 Boom crisis and adjustment. Yes. Yeah, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 11:19 and the title was given by yeah Max Gordon. Dhananath Fernando 11:23 Max Gordon. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 11:24 Yeah, yeah, and I because I am from the World Bank, I was the director of the project. Dhananath Fernando 11:29 Right. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 11:30 But I was a co-author also, so yeah. So so it was very nice working with him. I I you know I go to see him in Oxford from playing, and we go through it, and he will make very good comments to revise what we have done. And yeah, Dhananath Fernando 11:48 sorry, what he did in Sri Lanka was it like a was it a World Bank assignment or Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 11:54 no? Actually, he never did any assignments in Sri Lanka. What he did was that he led the team that looked at what is called developing country, nuclear policy of developing countries. He was the main advisor. He's the one who started it, and he has other work. He had done similar work, and he. So he. We have 19 countries in the group. Sri Lanka is one of this. One of the people who worked on it was our friend Atuko Rala. I just met him and I said, "Come and work with us. And he did a great job. Great, great work. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 12:32 Thank you, Dr. Abrajata. Before we wrap up and conclude our conversation today, did we miss anything? Do you have anything else to speak about? Excellent memories. I'm sure there'll be a lot because compared to what he have contributed to the world of economics and for developing countries. Anything else that you think? And we invite our viewers to go and read and refer his content and the ideas that he has. Yeah, Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 12:58 I think they will start with the book. Dhananath Fernando 13:03 boom crisis energy. It came later. Dr. Sarath Rajapatirana 13:05 The first one is that critique of welfare economy. Economy. Yeah. Dhananath Fernando 13:11 Go and read critique on welfare economy by Professor Ian Little. So you will get to know how he basically challenged his supervisor, TC supervisor. Thank you very much, Dr. Rajapatira, for joining and you know bringing us your memory about Professor Ian Little. Thank you very much. Transcribed by https://otter.ai