Dhananath Fernando 00:10 Hello, hello, everyone! You are joining with Advocata Studio. As you know, we are going to discuss about topics that is relevant to Sri Lanka's economy, and we are also going to discuss in detail about the economic reform process. And if you are following Advocata Institute and Advocata Plus, you are no stranger that we have been focusing about the land matter because, on a economic point of view, there are something called factor markers. Land, labour, and capital are the main factors of the economy, and Sri Lanka is having a history about land disputes. In case if you are in the middle of a land conflict, claiming on a land with your neighbour or something in that sort, you know how difficult it is to get it resolved through Sri Lanka's court proceedings. So with that, we would like to welcome Professor Ranjit Premarral di Silva. He is a senior professor at University of Peradeniya at the Department of Agriculture and Engineering. Professor Premaral, welcome to Advocata Studio, and thank you very much for your time. Speaker 1 01:17 Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, Dhananath Fernando 01:19 Professor Premaral. First, wanted to understand. I'm sure this land matter is everyone's problem. Some are happy that they have the deeds. Some are happy that they have secured. But from the statistics, from what I read, about 80% of the land is owned by the government, and there's a deed system. There's Bhimsavia. There's Swarna Bhumi, there is Jaya Bhumi. For a for a for someone who hasn't studied the subject, it seems a little complicated. Can you unpack a bit on what has happened and to bring it to you know to to to date up to date on what was the history a bit and where are we now? And what is? Can you clear the clear the dust first of all for us to move forward? Okay, Speaker 1 02:09 thank you. And this is a very timely issue that you have focus of the land. And if we look at the issues what we have at our hand today, these issues have a long history. If you look at earlier period, like started in 1850, when the British conquered the country, and 19 sorry 1840s, they declare that land belongs to the the British Empire. It's called Crown Lands. And after just before the independence, 19 as I remember, somewhere 1930s, they introduced the land ordinance, which claim the land for which people don't have clear titles or ownerships. All the lands belong to the government. So, and then they look at the encroachments and then tried to avoid encroachments. People occupying the land illegally was somewhat prevented by law, and then we had this land title registration system starting somewhere in 30s, 1930s. Dhananath Fernando 03:43 Professor Premal, you spoke about the Crown Land, the land ordinance, and the land registration system in 1930s. Can you elaborate a little bit more? How was the process? And you mentioned, for a couple of reasons, this British style land regulation was not appropriate to Sri Lanka. Can you elaborate a little bit more on the reasoning? Speaker 1 04:07 In fact, it's not suitable for Sri Lanka because when they started in 1930s, that was a fairly good system. Right. But with time, with the other developments, there were certain issues connected with the land ownerships. This land registry procedure is totally a manual process. Dhananath Fernando 04:30 Right, Speaker 1 04:31 and before that, Dhananath Fernando 04:32 Professor, so still the land ordinance and the land registration system are, I mean, enacted. It's effective, is it, or has there been changes or did I jump the gun? Are you coming to that? Speaker 1 04:44 Yeah, I just about to come. Okay, fine, fine. Go ahead, please, please continue. So the British system, where the surveying was done in United Kingdom by the the Ordnance Survey of UK, they had. A perfect system of land registration. So we adopted more or less the same system, but our there were certain issues with our land ownerships. We have customary rights. We have different societal ownerships of the land. So common ownership was not basically. It common ownership is not belongs to the government, but belongs to a group of people in the society. So these things were not really recognised in the system, and also we had ownership, customary land ownership coming from generation to generation, and then without having proper land registered land titles. So with the time, people realise even now we have experienced this. We have a problem, series of problems because we don't have a complete digital land registry, or we call it technically we don't have a cadaster. Cadasta is inventory of land, so it's basically digital inventory of land is a prerequisite in today's era because we need to verify the information, we need to be able to update the information immediately and be visible the updated information to the other people. Now the problem with the land registries, the traditional traditional system of land titles leads to people to have multiple deeds for the same land. There's no proper process for verification, and they can have fraudulent claims on the land, and then on the other hand, you can have so for the same land, you can have multiple ownerships, multiple titles, and you have to look at how the ownership is transferred with time, chronological order of ownership. Then, if the old landowner has not sold his land, then it belongs to him. Subsequent ownerships are not valid, and also there is no proper way of partitioning the land. There are regulations about how a land can be partitioned, and then if it is a area under the governing mechanism of urban development authority, there are certain rules you need. If you are partitioning or if you are dividing land for small plots, then you need to have access roads. The sizes of the access roads are defined, so all these regulations need to be maintained. But with the traditional system of land registry, it is very difficult to maintain this. So people always find difficulties, and not only that, when it comes to the identification of boundaries. We still use the traditional surveying methods, and although there are accepted level of accuracies in surveying measurements, because all these are surveys who got the licence? But there are still certain issues. Inaccuracies exist with the deeds and how you have the prepared the plan of the land. So these issues created the background for the specialist survey department together with the land ministry to look for a proper way of managing the land in a digital environment, Dhananath Fernando 08:53 Professor Premala. I want to unpack a few things that you mentioned. So, okay, we had the crown land, and then we had the land ordinance, and then we had the land title registration system starting from 1930. So, and then though that means, imagine if I had a land. Okay, let's discuss the customary land separately. But imagine if I had a land. So, to the way that I could prove that I own it is that land has to be registered at the land registry as per the 1930s land registry land registration system title registration system, and then where this access road and identifying boundaries is it come also from that land title registration system or the land ordinance or is it adopted later? First, let's clarify that. Speaker 1 09:45 Yeah, there are various government institutions who are responsible for different activities on land. Dhananath Fernando 09:53 Right, Speaker 1 09:54 and depending on the geographic location of the land, whether it is located in an urban area. Municipal council, provincial council area. There are different regulations, and there are other organisations like the Central Environmental Authority and Mining Bureau. They have also have some kind of mandate to operate on certain lands. So it's you cannot really summarise everything and give it to the land commissioners department or land registration land title registration department. It's it's a number of institutions jointly claiming the responsibility for various components on the land at you know different levels. Dhananath Fernando 10:45 Just to clarify, so for an example, if it's an archaeological land, basically that can override some of the other institutions, and it has to work hand in hand. Or they have their they have a way of defining it. Is that what you mean to say? Yeah, Speaker 1 11:00 how the law has been enacted show shows us how different organisation has the priority in making decisions on the land. Dhananath Fernando 11:11 Right. Speaker 1 11:12 So basically, if it is an archaeological site, they have the priority, and other people cannot go and make any activity on the land without the permission from the Department of Archaeology. Like, if it is something to do with if we are going to have activity related to some impact on environment, then Central Environmental Authority comes in. They have the mandate to impose a mandatory requirement of EIA for those activities which have been defined by the act. So same as if Dhananath Fernando 11:47 it's something regarding mining is some under your ground, and then the and the Geological Speaker 1 11:52 Survey and Mines Bureau intervene, and they had to issue the licence because it is under their mandate. And if it is related to if it is in the coastal area, Coast Conservation Department, which has the first the environmental concern, they have the authority. So different institutions come in; they have different regulations, laws enacted on the land. But when we look at it, we have to look at comprehensively to understand, it depends on the location, geographic location, the then the administrative level which it operates, and activity that we are going to have on the land. What kind of the size of the land? All these things matter when it comes to decision making. Dhananath Fernando 12:41 Got it. And then on these titles and when you you mention about titles and the boundaries. So when you say titles, do you mean to say the deed or because we have also heard Bhimsavia and Jaya Bhumi and Swarna Bhumi? And what does it mean? Can you explain like what is a jaya bumi, a swarna bumi, and what do you mean by a title and a deed, and what is the difference of these things? Speaker 1 13:07 Well, when it comes to ownership of land, there are two things that you need to have. One is identification of boundary of the land, Dhananath Fernando 13:16 right, Speaker 1 13:17 and that has to be done by a licence survey in a survey plan, so we have to have the plan, which should be numbered, and then together with the plan, the ownership should be registered. So deed should be written with reference to the plan of the land according to the licence survey identification, so that these two documents, deed and the plan, should go together for the registration. Right, and then when it comes to the registration of land, they maintain the history of land ownership, so you can go back and trace the ownership history, and whenever you record a new transaction which transfer the ownership, that should be recorded in the land registry. You know, as I mentioned earlier, there are number of issues with this. So realising that the somewhere in 1997, Australian government came forward. They had very good land registration system, digital land registration system. They call it torrents. Torrent system. Torrent system. So they wanted to support us. What they did was they invited government officials who are involved in this for a like session in Western Australia to familiarise with this new system. What they have, so our. Like survey department and land commissioners department, land ministry, a group of responsible people went and had a kind of exposure visit, and then in parallel to that, somewhere in 1998, the government introduced this new land title registration ordinance or act. Actually, it's act. As I remember, it's number 21 of 1998. That introduced number of measures to secure the ownership, to have a clear titles for the land, and with that, with these powers vested to the land title registration department, they started the beam survey programme. That's how bim savvier started. Very Dhananath Fernando 15:57 very quick intervention. Can you also explain what's the difference between the deed and the title? You explained the deed. You mentioned it's like a registry that you go and you know write in that book, and you're explaining the challenges of it. But also, since you use the word title, could you also explain what does it mean? It Speaker 1 16:17 can be used synonymously, but deed is actually a complete document giving details of the boundaries in words, identifying boundaries, and with reference to the survey plan. Dhananath Fernando 16:35 Right. Speaker 1 16:36 And the registration of it in the registry is called title registration. Right. So that okay, like you have land that your ownership need to be registered. That's called title registration. Title Dhananath Fernando 16:52 registration. Basically, you have a document saying that this is the boundaries of the land, written basically written in words, saying this road is one boundary, the other side this tree or something is another boundary, and then it was given, and then Speaker 1 17:09 with the plan Dhananath Fernando 17:10 with the plan with the very important graphical Speaker 1 17:12 illustration is also there. Dhananath Fernando 17:13 Graphical illustration is also there, which has to be done by a licenced surveyor, and both together has to be at the land registration system, and that where you can trace the ownership. Speaker 1 17:27 Yeah, the issue is when you have these documents, you can't keep these documents in a book. Dhananath Fernando 17:32 Right. Speaker 1 17:32 So in the book, what you enter is a with reference to those documents. You enter the details. Details. So that's the title registration book. So we have basically you now. What when you have a document, if you don't want to read the entire document, you can understand what it is by looking at the title. Dhananath Fernando 17:54 Correct. Speaker 1 17:54 So this is kind of thing. So you have the title. So it indicates, okay, he is the owner, and this is how, which is when it was registered, and refers to the documents which are relevant to this. Dhananath Fernando 18:06 Okay, just to simplify it for our audience, this means like a letter registry. Someone receives a letter, and you open the letter. There's a title, and you register. Say this is the title of the letter. This is for the person that you have received the letter. This is the date that you received the letter, and probably a note on like what is it all all about. Did I explain right? Okay. Speaker 1 18:28 Now in a office we have a inward register and outward register, which record that letter, and then here the issue is we have the deed number, Dhananath Fernando 18:39 right, Speaker 1 18:39 which is issued by a particular and according to an order, so that is also registered. So you have a deed with the number, and you have a plan with the number. Dhananath Fernando 18:50 So the survey general, the the chartered survey, or like the licenced surveyor, they they will have a number for that particular plan, which will also in the registry, so as the sequential number of the deed, so someone can go back and refer to that deed and the the survey like the survey plan. Okay, got it. So what's the title? What's is it the same or different? Speaker 1 19:14 The title is what you entered in the registry. Registry. Okay, title is what Dhananath Fernando 19:18 you entered in the registry. Okay, got it. So then you explained about Australians coming, the Toran system, and on this titling system with Bimsavir in 1997, 1998, 1998. So what does it? What is the difference? So you have the title which is registered in that book. Now what is the difference? What the Australians brought in or what we were trying to do with Bimsavir? Speaker 1 19:40 Bimsavir, we want to resolve some of the issues we had with the title registration. We what we want to have is a kind of a total digital system, where the boundaries with actually a map is registered with the details of. The owner, if there are any conflicts about the ownership, which was the issues were resolved before you enter the data into BIMSA. So, and then rather than having a deed which was written by a notary public or a lawyer, BIMSA issues your title certificate, Dhananath Fernando 20:23 right, Speaker 1 20:23 and which can be updated, and the updation immediately goes into the system. So if anybody wants to check the system, they can get the updated information, Dhananath Fernando 20:37 right, and so that means there'll be no disputes because whether if it's updated in the system that is there and you can get a in your certificate that it can be updated so you have a reference and it's already in the system Speaker 1 20:51 and it's more transparent system because now even now if you don't look at the BIM saviour programme which has not been implemented properly if you go for title registration, if you want to buy a land, and then you need to find somebody who can go to the land registry and verify the information. After the verification, also there's a time between the verification and the purchase in the land. During that period, somebody can change the ownership in the land registry, and then you are buying a land from somebody, but it is not owned by the person at the time of purchasing. So these issues can be resolved when you have the digital system. We are now most of the government institutions introduce digital verification systems. So that's the advantage of having records in digital form because you can share it, but you can't modify it. Anybody can have access to it because this public information. So this information should remain in the public domain. So people can have access. Look at it now. If you want to buy a motor vehicle, now you can go and verify the ownership from the RMB website. So that's the information which should remain with the public because this information is useful for the public when they make decisions. Land registration is also a similar thing. So when we want to buy the land, you don't need to go behind the lawyer to asking him to go and check the title registry because, and then even if you go there, you have to find somebody you know to help you. It's not easy to go and retrieve the records. But if you have a digital system, it can be accessed by because it can't be. It doesn't need to be kept confidential. Dhananath Fernando 22:35 If Speaker 1 22:35 you, it should be open now with opening up of assets of people in Sri Lanka, so you can see now if somebody declares that I own this land, you can see whether that land is owned by this person. If the process has been done, done. Yeah. If the person has not declared something, you can go and put the name and verify who now in other countries you can give the name. But you know, if we go to USO, UK, even Australia, people have very short names. So same name, there are 1000s of people, but with the right identification, you can see all the lands owned by this particular person. Dhananath Fernando 23:15 Got it. Okay, now let's come to the more important questions. So now on the Beamsa, yes. So what you say is it's like a website. Now you can join Advocata. I mean, you can browse Advocata website, but you cannot edit our website. You can see, you can certain documents are downloadable, but you cannot edit anything. Same way, you mean that you can people can log into the people can view the land system on digital form, but you cannot edit it. So under BIMSA now, is it who's managing? Who is who manages that system? Number one, and is it accessible for the public? Speaker 1 23:52 Not yet. Okay. Actually, now if it is a open access system, and different people have different level of access. Some people only can read the information. Some people can download. Some people can enter. Some people can modify other records. Like there are different levels of access. But here, this since this has not been launched properly and comprehensively, we don't have that facility. Right. But the aim was to provide that facility for the public. Dhananath Fernando 24:23 So now, where is it? Like from the little information that we have, is there are about 16 million land plus. I think under BIMSAY they have done about 1 million. So do you think, with your knowledge, this has been entered to that torrent system? Is it there? Is it in that right form? And people have received BIMSA certificates in certain cases. At the same time, there are complaints about the system, which we will come to in the latter part. But where is it at the moment? Is it in that proper structure, or whether I have also heard that the torrent system is outdated? That's one of the problems that it is not moving forward. Where is it at the moment? Speaker 1 24:59 It's not the torrent system as it is what we have implemented here. Dhananath Fernando 25:04 Okay. Speaker 1 25:05 But with my personal experience, I can see that this Bimsaviye is not performing the way it was expected to perform. Dhananath Fernando 25:15 Right. Speaker 1 25:16 Now, if I tell you my personal experience, I have a piece of land peradinye. It was surveyed under Bimsavya, and I was asked to come to the regional office to verify. I went there, but there's nobody interested in taking that information, so I can't be going, you know, every day like getting this done. So I just gave it up, and I never received any title certificate or like the Bimsavi land title certificate, and I don't know what has happened after that. So I just inquired about it from the neighbours, but the the process was good. How they came and they inspected the land, access roads, common areas. For example, my father-in-law gave a small piece of land for common use for the village people. So that was kept separately, and they demarcated it, identified it separately, and identified. Nobody can now encroach it because it's a common land. So likewise, there are good side of it. But to get get the benefit properly for the public, it needs to be implemented the way it was expected to work. So now, unfortunately, it doesn't work. Dhananath Fernando 26:39 Right. So now I know people get confused. Okay, now some people who are watching may have a deed. Some may have a bim savvier. Some may want to make it a bim saviour. Do you have any thoughts like how? I mean, how can he make it to beam savvier, or is it necessary? Or since the process is slow, whether you really do not have a choice. What is your advice for someone who is watching this? Speaker 1 27:04 Yeah, in fact, our system of governance, when we have different governments coming to power, people don't want to continue under the same name. So whether it is Bimsaviye or any other name, what we need to have for the country's land information Dhananath Fernando 27:21 system, Speaker 1 27:22 a comprehensive land information system, where each and every land parcel information is recorded, boundaries are defined digitally, and then that information, that information as an information system, should be made available to the public. Now that along this line, there are couple of initiatives from the survey department and the land title registration department. So, survey department there is a Swiss government-funded supported project that also improved the capacity of the survey department considerably in handling the this cadastral information. In addition to that, there was another project supported by it's mostly on geographical information system mapping project by the French government, which was which was introduced during President Chandrakakumar Tunga's time, and a lot of administrative issues that had to be sorted out. So, as a pilot study, Attnagall D.S. Division it was started, and the French team came here, work very hard. I was also had number of discussions with them. At that time, I was the president of the Geo Informatics Society of Sri Lanka. So they introduce high resolution land information system, so you can scale it up and scale it down as you wish, and detailed information is entered about the ownership and the boundaries, and then in addition to that, there are a lot of other attributes about the land which had been entered into the system, so it. If we can introduce that system or have the system for the entire country, I think that makes the land management not only for the title registration, but entire land management. Because as I told you earlier, there are a number of institutions which are mandated to work on land, so everybody can work without any restrictions if we can have that kind of a complete digital land information system. And Canada, we have complete land. Information system. That is where this concept of land information system started in 1960s. So, when we have this kind of a system, it facilitated the best use of the land. When it comes to agricultural land, you can select which land is used for and what is the best use of the land? If it is industrial land, you can see how it is used, where it is used, who used it, and if it is other the community use land or any other common properties, you can see the use whether and this property is being used properly, and all that information, all this attribute information, you can feed into the system. So that will help to like expand the information base, and then it will help the proper management of land. Dhananath Fernando 30:55 So just so to understand. So do you mean to say this French system, and that there are multiple land information system is better than Beamsavia, and is there a way that we can adapt, or that means do we have to like scrap everything and convert, or like or like measure? Because already we have spent time like you know measuring, or like you know going through the process of Beamsavia for about 1 million land passes as per the public information. So how does it happen? All these can be complementing each other, and the system can be upgraded to the same level. And what additional features that the new system that you propose, or like you you just spoke, would contain? Speaker 1 31:34 The BIMSA programme is only aimed at providing land titles or registrations. Basically, it was it came from the land title registration department. Department. So its its mandate is to make ensure that people have peer titles ownership to the land. But when it comes to a land information system, there are multiple many uses of it, Dhananath Fernando 32:00 right? Speaker 1 32:01 So, for example, not only the now we are looking only at the horizontal dimension. Like look at the land in the two dB. We need to look at the land in three dimensionally, especially when it comes to urban areas. Now there are restrictions. Now, for example, if you look at the immediate vicinity of the airport. There are certain restrictions. When you go away from the airport, that restrictions get you know controlled step by step. Speaker 1 32:34 Now, if we are within a certain 100, 200 metres from airport, there are strict restrictions on the height of the buildings. Same with the like the urban areas. Now, urban area there are limits where you can have the number of floors, and there are restrictions on the height of each floor and number of floors you can have, and also you have a limitation on the size of the land where you can have a construction. Dhananath Fernando 33:06 Correct. I'm sure people are aware that if you are in the urban area, at least I mean people shoot different numbers. You need five perch, a six perch to build a house, and you know yes. Speaker 1 33:15 So it's very difficult to control this process manually. Dhananath Fernando 33:20 Right. Speaker 1 33:21 Now, in addition to that, say for example, the municipal council decides to impose property tax. The government has been talking about this quite for a while, and I also heard that the His Excellency the President declared that there won't be any new taxes from this budget, but there has been discussions on the property tax. It Dhananath Fernando 33:47 has also in the IMF governance diagnostic report as well. Yes. Speaker 1 33:51 Then, when it comes to property tax, you can, you should be able to tax not only on the two-dimensional picture size of the land, but a kind of building that you have put on this land, right? So number of floors, how? So it's a vertical space also should be Dhananath Fernando 34:10 counted. Speaker 1 34:10 Counted. So without having a complete database. Now again, now when it comes to construction, people get permission for like 10-story building, but ended up with 12-story building. There are regulations, but you know you have to physically go and verify it. You can't stop while it is being constructed. Right. So if you have 3d management system, where now there is technology lidar technology, you can go for three-dimensional mapping, and developed countries like, especially UK, they monitor each and every land parcel is monitored periodically to ensure that you are having compliance with the regulations and you do not have anything outside the permitted level. So we need we can monitor, we can. Monitor the size of the land parcels, whether permission can be granted, what kind of building what kind of building you are putting up, so that everything can be controlled. So you don't have to wait. Somebody send a petition to go and inspect the land. You can monitor, and also there are certain level of access requirements. Now these requirements are becoming very serious because we need to provide access when it comes to building. We need to provide access if it is a public building and access to the public. We need to have access requirements for the differently abled people. So these things can be governed, and everything regard now coming back to this property tax, if the government wants to, municipal council want to introduce a property tax, how do you do it? You have to value the land. Now to value the land, you need to look at the certain attributes like distance from the road, market value of that area, and then type of building you have, type of like construction, roofing material, everything you need to consider, and then if you do it, do a survey once. So if you can send people to do the survey, and then go to each and every household, each and every building, collect the information and come back, and then we want to introduce this. Suddenly, you realise that you want to have one more attribute, one more attribute in this. You have to send the people again to the field, right? But now, if you have the data in a database, it's just a matter of finding that information from the table. So it's like if you want to decide the price of the the property tax based on the market value and other attributes, what you need is only you need to define that as an equation, and then you get the property tax calculated for each and every property of that area. You can decide where you want to have tax. Say, for example, from the city centre or Colombo, it's a two-kilometer radius or five-kilometer radius. Just a matter of giving that, and then you get all the data retrieved and you have all the information of the landowners, proper owners of the land, you can prepare one common letter, put it to the database, get the letters printed, or even digitally you can transfer this to the people. So it's very easy. Management is very easy. Dhananath Fernando 37:31 Got it. Now I have a technological question. How do you actually do it? Because from what I gathered was, this is not a manual process measuring the height of the building, the height of the flow, and all that. So, is it involves satellite technology, or how does it actually happen? Speaker 1 37:46 There are different technologies. This is your area. This is your engineering Dhananath Fernando 37:50 side come to play. Speaker 1 37:52 Different technologies available, and a kind of 3d mapping you need. You can have now. Most of the urban areas there are restrictions because there are limitations of sizes and all that. So what you need is develop a proper three-dimensional profile of the area. So that there are technologies like most of the countries use a lidar technology. So and also you can use high-resolution satellite imagery as well. Now, with the drone technology, you can even, if you want to have a controlled like development in an area, you can have a drone mission to collect the required data, and then it's a matter of analysing this data, and the AI methods will provide us very sound platforms to get multiple data sources and then come up with the information required for decision making. So that's not a big deal. But only thing is you have to have a concept, motivation, procedure, and the implementation plan, then you can go ahead and do it. You can you don't need to do it for the entire country at once. You can gradually build it, but this should be the method that you introduce for one area should be capable of combining because you don't need to have one scale. That's advantage of geographical information systems. Information system, you can have multiple scales. You can look at the information at very detailed scale. Like survey department for the urban areas, they have developed one to 2000 level digital maps. 2000 is a very detailed scale, and from if you go outside, like peri-urban areas, they have about 5000 scale, and for the entire country they have 10,000 scale maps. So you can go for different scales and change in the scale and looking at different characteristics of the land or in the area. It's not a problem with the information system. So GIS has that capability. Dhananath Fernando 39:56 So what would if we were to implement that? So the already the. Soviet titles that can has also to be like absorbed because as you said it's a more a two dimensional one because already some level of information is there because from what I understood this is more a drone one but at the same time someone has to enter the data by verifying this land is owned by you this is your boundary it has to be sync with the digital system at the same time, ideally in the first phase, a surveyor has to go and basically get the demarcation or like the boundary and measure it. Am I am I understanding it right? How does it work? Speaker 1 40:34 Yeah, there's certain components that you need to do physically. Dhananath Fernando 40:38 Right, Speaker 1 40:39 but the advantage of this system is you need to verify it only once, and you can use it many times, update it number of times. That's the advantage, and now the information collection can even be done digitally remotely, because people have access to smartphones. It's a matter of administering small information collection system, where people who are interested can come and contribute. So, if you are want to claim your land ownership, then you need to come and give your details. You can give a copy of your title, and like take a photo and give that. So, you don't need to do physically most of the things. Technologies are available to do it remotely, even if you are not in Sri Lanka, you can still. Otherwise, you cannot do it. If you you have land here, you are abroad, and you cannot get the ownership. But still, now there are methods that you can do. So, what I see is BIMSA as a programme since it started. It has gone a long way, and we have invested a fairly large amount of resources on that, we can continue and have this Sri Lanka land title settlement. It's called land title settlement work without any interruption. It should go in, but then a complete land information system can be developed, taking the input from the BIMSA as well as input from other sources, which will allow us to manage lands properly and to identify the lands. For example, if investors ask the government to provide lands with these kind of attributes like it needs to be within certain kilometres from the known airport. It has to be there should be labour availability. It should not be you know having these these close to a culturally important site because people can. So we can look at the length available once you define the criteria, information system will provide you all the land within the country which are which satisfy your criteria. So you don't need to send surveys. You don't need to go to the field people to go and evaluate the situation. You can do it from the desk. So what you need is to have a complete digital system because we move into digital system and we have lot of new technologies developed. AI cannot be used if you don't have data in digital form. So it's a matter of getting things into digital form, which will facilitate not only the land management; most of the other, like when it comes to inland revenue, collecting revenues, that will help. So all the other associated activities can also be supported if we have a proper system. Dhananath Fernando 43:35 So basically, from what I gathered, when you have this land information system, I'm sure most of the people who are watching this programme are conversant with these new AI tools like ChatGPT. So you give a prompt like the same way. If you have all the system ready, one thing is you can check any person whether they own the land and whether actually their declared details are in line with even the IRD department, or in fact, if you're searching, I'm sure most of us are searching for vehicles to buy houses, rent houses. The same way, you can do the same search option on an AI platform on the same land information system, and should be. I'm if you're looking for a waterfront land, it should be available. If you're looking for a flat land for a solar project that should be available, if you are looking for depending on your requirement, property accumulation. Can I give you example? Yes. Speaker 1 44:28 Now, when it comes to real estate business, now if you want to buy a land here, if you want to buy a house, and you go to real estate agent, and then you give the criteria. Okay, I want this is my budget, and this kind of facilities I need in house. So you define the size of the plot. I need minimum 10 perch land. I need at least two story building with three bedrooms, three bathrooms, have a fence around, a wall around the house, and all your. Requirements are defined. Then what he does is he'll give you all the properties, and then you spend days and days visiting properties. But then you find your requirements are not satisfied. If you go to UK or developed country, most of the countries they have entire details of. If you have, if you want to sell a property? They record all the details of the property, location, all the who owns it, your contact details, what is the size of the plot, whether you have a road front, whether you have number of floors you have in the building, when it was built, the what is the roofing material, what is the building material use, what kind of flow you have, number of bedrooms, number of bathrooms, when it was renovated, all this information Dhananath Fernando 45:46 is Speaker 1 45:46 collected and recorded in the database. So when you want to buy a land, when you go to real estate agent, he will ask you to digitally fill your requirement. Transcribed by https://otter.ai