00:00 foreign 00:02 00:02 [Music] 00:16 00:16 welcome back to another episode of the 00:19 00:19 reset Now podcast where we talk about 00:21 00:21 all things reform I am your host for the 00:25 00:25 day and join with us today is 00:29 00:29 doctor it's good to have you in the show 00:31 00:31 with us thank you that's a pleasure to 00:34 00:34 be here today we'll be discussing about 00:37 00:37 Sri Lanka's labelo market trends and the 00:40 00:40 reform recommendations that need to be 00:42 00:42 implemented to address the barriers in 00:44 00:44 it before getting into the podcast let 00:47 00:47 me give our listeners a brief 00:49 00:49 introduction about Dr Ramin 00:53 00:53 is an independent consultant and her 00:56 00:56 researchers mainly focus on labor 00:59 00:59 markets and issues related to women 01:01 01:01 employment in Sri Lanka to set the 01:03 01:03 context for the discussion for the day 01:04 01:04 so labor reforms is something that 01:06 01:06 Advocate has been talking about for the 01:08 01:08 last couple of years and we started with 01:10 01:10 the reform law of confidence 01:12 01:12 um since labor reforms are currently in 01:14 01:14 the discussion in Sri Lanka's society 01:17 01:17 and the political Arena we thought it's 01:19 01:19 important to talk about Labor reforms 01:21 01:21 from our side as well so to talk about 01:25 01:25 the structure of the Sri Lanka's labor 01:27 01:27 market and labor structure of it some 01:31 01:31 Keen noticeable aspects of it is 01:34 01:34 um basically the gender sorry the gender 01:37 01:37 gap in the labor force participation and 01:39 01:39 there's a big informal sector and 01:41 01:41 there's an aging population while while 01:45 01:45 for the past couple of months we have 01:46 01:46 seen migration also been included in it 01:50 01:50 um to start the conversation after 01:52 01:52 doctor so Sri Lanka's labor force that 01:55 01:55 has always seen a trend in terms of 01:58 01:58 participation of the labor force there's 02:00 02:00 a gap in it in terms of always female 02:03 02:03 Force participation has been lower than 02:06 02:06 the female participation rate 02:09 02:09 um and according to ADB we are in that 02:12 02:12 in terms of the Gap we are in the 20th 02:15 02:15 Place 02:16 02:16 um so 02:17 02:17 this kind of also shows there's an 02:20 02:20 untapped potential within the labor 02:22 02:22 market itself 02:24 02:24 um so what is actually preventing women 02:26 02:26 from entering into the labor force in 02:28 02:28 the first place 02:29 02:29 Yes actually I I think maybe I should 02:33 02:33 start with by saying that why is it 02:36 02:36 important for women to participate of 02:40 02:40 course it's important for themselves 02:41 02:41 they have most of them had free have had 02:45 02:45 free education 02:46 02:46 at the expense of the taxpayer and uh 02:51 02:51 they should be able to earn money 02:55 02:55 and get Returns on this education save 02:58 02:58 for their old age because they are 02:60 02:60 likely to be living much longer 03:02 03:02 for them 03:04 03:04 it is a question of earning and meeting 03:07 03:08 their potential 03:09 03:09 but it is also important for the country 03:11 03:11 as a whole as you mentioned that we are 03:14 03:14 an aging population we are a rapidly 03:16 03:17 aging population and I would say we we 03:20 03:20 are the we are the poorest rapidly aging 03:24 03:24 population 03:26 03:26 others have eye itching but like Japan 03:30 03:30 and South Korea they are rich we now we 03:32 03:32 are going to get old before we get rich 03:36 03:36 and and that is an issue because we are 03:39 03:39 not going to have enough workers 03:42 03:42 uh so in that context as well in an 03:46 03:46 aging population where your working age 03:48 03:48 cohort is shrinking relatively to the 03:52 03:52 dependent 03:53 03:53 uh population then you need to look 03:57 03:57 around and see where can we increase 03:59 03:59 labor Supply 04:00 04:00 obviously when only about 32 percent of 04:05 04:05 the working age cohort of women are 04:07 04:07 willing or able to participate in paid 04:10 04:10 work then obviously that is where we can 04:15 04:15 first try to increase labor Supply 04:19 04:19 then the issue comes up okay so these 04:24 04:24 women are mostly relatively educated 04:27 04:27 uh 04:28 04:28 in in along many dimensions they are 04:31 04:31 better educated than men 04:34 04:34 and certainly in terms of 04:37 04:37 cognitive skills Professor Delaney 04:40 04:40 gunawadness work has shown that they 04:42 04:42 they are they have more skills than men 04:45 04:45 though they are earning less when they 04:46 04:46 do get jobs 04:49 04:49 so why are they not participating or why 04:51 04:51 are they unable to enter the paid 04:54 04:54 Workforce 04:57 04:57 there are many reasons and and I think 04:59 04:59 the best way to to visualize this is in 05:02 05:02 terms of 05:03 05:03 concentric barriers which they have to 05:06 05:06 jump over 05:08 05:08 the first set of barriers is is 05:11 05:11 it it relates to themselves and their 05:14 05:14 households if they have children 05:16 05:16 it's difficult to go to work if they 05:19 05:19 don't have the skills that the labor 05:22 05:22 market demands no 05:24 05:24 then there are also things like well if 05:27 05:27 your husband is earning enough for other 05:29 05:29 males in the family are bringing home 05:31 05:31 enough 05:32 05:32 then maybe you don't need to go to work 05:35 05:35 you may as well concentrate on your 05:37 05:37 children and perhaps you are not that 05:39 05:39 educated that you will get a good job 05:41 05:41 with a good pension at the end even 05:43 05:43 government servants can no longer live 05:46 05:46 on their pensions when they are old so 05:48 05:48 it may make sense to stay at home and 05:50 05:50 look after your children and make sure 05:52 05:52 that they get a good education and then 05:54 05:54 they will look after you in your old age 05:56 05:56 so these are all rational decisions that 06:00 06:00 women make given the conditions that 06:04 06:04 they are faced with so there's a range 06:07 06:07 of conditions here I have only spoken 06:09 06:09 about the ones related to themselves and 06:11 06:11 their households but also in terms of 06:13 06:13 the local community the demand for them 06:15 06:15 a recent study that Professor Sunil 06:18 06:18 Chandra and ID that did show that if 06:22 06:22 your managers the managers in your 06:25 06:25 Enterprise are males they are less 06:28 06:28 likely to to employ women regardless of 06:32 06:32 the structure of the industry 06:34 06:34 uh because now structure also plays A 06:37 06:37 Part when when when your production 06:39 06:39 structures are low skilled intensive 06:42 06:42 there are more incentives to hire women 06:46 06:46 because you pay them less also 06:48 06:48 and then of course the macroeconomic 06:50 06:50 condition I think 06:52 06:52 has been the most important our economic 06:56 06:56 train hasn't been running 06:59 06:59 it has to run fast enough so that it 07:02 07:02 pulls people out of 07:06 07:06 ah other non-paid work into paid work if 07:10 07:10 you look around the world where women 07:13 07:13 have 07:14 07:14 increased participation in the paid 07:16 07:16 Workforce that is where there has been a 07:19 07:19 huge demand created by certain exogenous 07:22 07:22 factors in in say European countries it 07:25 07:26 would be the second world war the first 07:28 07:28 and second world war in in the Far East 07:30 07:30 it was that huge labor intensive uh 07:35 07:35 growth that they experienced 07:37 07:37 unfortunately our train has been limping 07:40 07:40 along 07:41 07:41 so so we are trying to to enable women 07:45 07:45 to enter the workforce in in a very 07:50 07:50 inhibiting macroeconomic environment 07:54 07:54 um also to add to the what you said 07:55 07:56 about the 32 percent of females uh 07:58 07:58 participating in the Sri Lanka's labor 07:60 07:60 force this is a car in the definition of 08:01 08:02 they are saying women who are already 08:04 08:04 employed and also women who are also 08:06 08:06 looking for work yes so you are looking 08:09 08:09 necessarily are looking at people who 08:11 08:11 are interested in working as well yeah 08:13 08:14 but also they are not implied yes so 08:16 08:16 including all those people it's just 32 08:18 08:18 yes so there's a lot more partition 08:21 08:21 within the lab Market itself you're 08:24 08:24 right I mean there could be a lot of 08:25 08:26 women who feel thoroughly discouraged 08:28 08:28 and they are not even looking for work 08:30 08:30 yes but who who may be encouraged to 08:34 08:34 enter the workforce if the incentives 08:36 08:36 and the structures are conducive right 08:40 08:40 um I think doctor you gave a good 08:42 08:42 introduction for our next question the 08:44 08:44 next part of the conversation as well 08:46 08:46 which is the Aging population in Sri 08:47 08:47 Lanka 08:48 08:48 um I think a lot of people have been 08:49 08:49 talking about it but necessarily the 08:51 08:51 policy makers haven't been focusing on 08:53 08:53 it 08:54 08:54 um so in 2019 the ADP predicted that Sri 08:57 08:57 Lanka is one of the fastest fastest 08:60 08:60 aging countries in South Asia 09:03 09:03 um and with the population expected to 09:05 09:05 contract by 2038. 09:09 09:09 so that has the economic crisis 09:10 09:11 accelerated this issue according to you 09:14 09:14 Yes actually I mean when when you speak 09:18 09:18 about it the hairs rise on my arms I I 09:21 09:21 have to say it is a very frightening 09:23 09:23 Prospect and 09:26 09:26 most economists know that that this this 09:30 09:30 is a kind of demographic time bomb 09:34 09:34 uh you see the time bomb was sticking 09:37 09:37 before the crisis as I told you our 09:40 09:40 population was aging 09:42 09:42 and our skills development structures 09:48 09:48 weren't producing workers with 09:53 09:53 the skills needed for the workplace 09:56 09:56 that's on one on the one hand on the 09:58 09:58 other hand are production structures are 10:02 10:02 also dependent on Old Technologies 10:06 10:06 so so we we both kind of caught in this 10:10 10:10 Vice 10:11 10:11 where even the young people who are 10:14 10:14 entering the labor markets 10:17 10:17 could not be productively used 10:20 10:20 for economic growth and even for 10:24 10:24 themselves to earn enough to to 10:28 10:28 live independently and and think of a 10:31 10:31 fairly secure old age now a lot of these 10:35 10:35 factors have intensified after the 10:39 10:39 crisis 10:40 10:40 ah I I can think of three ways 10:45 10:45 in which this has happened first is the 10:48 10:48 crisis has caused a hemorrhage of young 10:52 10:52 people out of the country uh 10:55 10:55 I I think data from the foreign 10:59 10:59 employment Bureau puts the figures about 11:01 11:01 at about 360 11:04 11:04 000 or so who left in 2022 11:07 11:07 but those are through those are only 11:10 11:10 people who are registered with the Feb 11:13 11:13 I think I I mean most people say that at 11:17 11:17 least a million have gone and they are 11:20 11:20 still going 11:23 11:23 now what happens with this is that we 11:26 11:26 our 11:27 11:27 problems of skills deficits skills 11:31 11:31 shortages is just going to increase they 11:34 11:35 have already increased 11:37 11:37 that's one thing and then of course wage 11:40 11:41 costs rise because uh 11:44 11:44 the same number of firms are competing 11:47 11:47 for the same number of skilled workers 11:50 11:50 for example who are still here and they 11:54 11:54 are here because they have to look after 11:55 11:55 aging parents and so so you see that 11:58 11:58 demographic situation working out there 11:60 11:60 also 12:01 12:01 then there's another thing 12:03 12:03 for the future 12:05 12:05 you see if the job situation is bad and 12:09 12:09 you can't migrate 12:11 12:11 and you're a young person you can't 12:13 12:13 marry yeah you you have to stay with 12:17 12:17 your parents uh and uh you may delay 12:21 12:21 marriage 12:23 12:23 and you may not marry at all 12:26 12:26 and if you are married you can't think 12:29 12:29 of having children so our demographic 12:32 12:32 crisis is going to intensify 12:37 12:37 because of this crisis our birth traits 12:41 12:41 will drop they were in any case just a 12:44 12:44 little above replacement levels but that 12:47 12:47 was also only because of the the kind of 12:51 12:51 Boom which followed the end of the war 12:53 12:53 now you will have the reverse happening 12:56 12:56 so 12:59 12:59 I mean again I I get this this sort of 13:02 13:02 almost Panic feeling 13:04 13:04 uh I I think if we can manage to steer 13:09 13:09 our economy into some kind of Safe 13:12 13:12 Harbor 13:13 13:13 over the next four to five years 13:16 13:16 then there may be hope for us because 13:20 13:20 all the young people who have gone they 13:23 13:23 will get experience killed exposure 13:27 13:27 about how things are done in other 13:30 13:30 countries and then they may come back 13:32 13:32 okay and and you you may have a a kind 13:36 13:36 of uh 13:38 13:38 a structural break in our growth rate 13:42 13:42 economic growth rate because there will 13:44 13:44 be more people who will know to do 13:46 13:46 things better 13:47 13:47 uh and and also I think nobody leaves 13:51 13:51 this country uh 13:53 13:53 because they don't like the country 13:56 13:56 I mean this is a beautiful country 13:58 13:58 everybody whose outside wants to come 13:60 13:60 back here it's just that our policy 14:03 14:03 makers have dropped the ball for decades 14:07 14:08 and and now things are very very 14:10 14:10 difficult 14:12 14:12 so I I think we need to look forward in 14:16 14:16 that sense and try to get our act 14:18 14:18 together so that we can attract back our 14:22 14:22 young people in about five to seven 14:24 14:24 years time and I think one of the points 14:27 14:27 that you mentioned as well doctor 14:29 14:29 because the economy is not growing the 14:31 14:31 income level the income that the person 14:33 14:33 average person would get will also drop 14:35 14:35 by so I think in terms of being a young 14:38 14:38 person myself is also kind of concerned 14:40 14:40 in a way like for you to have a life 14:42 14:42 here in this country you need to have 14:44 14:44 you need to be able to earn well right 14:46 14:46 and while you have your parents and say 14:49 14:49 you get married you have your spouse's 14:52 14:52 parents as well and add to that children 14:54 14:54 that is not something that you can 14:56 14:56 manage with the current economic sense 14:59 14:59 right no no it is it is very difficult 15:03 15:03 it is very difficult and and also inner 15:07 15:07 way in a way because our demographic 15:10 15:10 transition happened early we are kind of 15:13 15:14 stuck you see if you look at our 15:16 15:16 grandparents generation there were four 15:19 15:19 generations there you see so the 15:21 15:21 children were looked after by their 15:23 15:23 mothers and the grandmothers would be 15:25 15:25 looking after the great grandmothers you 15:28 15:28 see so you had four generations now the 15:31 15:31 middle two have been have have 15:33 15:33 collapsed yes and they have to look 15:37 15:37 at both ends right and the other thing 15:40 15:40 is earlier uh people the people who are 15:44 15:44 healthy lived long without much trouble 15:46 15:46 and then they died now what is happening 15:48 15:48 is people are living long with all sorts 15:52 15:52 of health conditions which which means 15:55 15:55 more Health expenditure and more time 15:60 15:60 required in caring for them 16:02 16:02 so so we are in a very very difficult 16:06 16:06 situation I would say that my generation 16:09 16:09 is is the first to face this crisis we 16:14 16:14 are already in there but for your 16:16 16:16 generation it is likely to be much worse 16:19 16:20 correct yes 16:21 16:21 um I think Dr since one of the points 16:23 16:23 that you also mentioned was migration I 16:25 16:25 think almost all of us know that 16:27 16:27 migration has been happening uh with 16:29 16:29 with the economic classicity test 16:31 16:31 intensified 16:33 16:33 um and talking about it migration is 16:35 16:35 also kind of like a brain drain from the 16:36 16:36 country itself 16:38 16:38 um but if you look at the actual 16:40 16:40 quantity of people migrating and the 16:42 16:42 fact that most migrations happen at the 16:45 16:45 skilled and unskilled levels 16:47 16:47 um what will be the long-term effect on 16:49 16:49 this 16:50 16:50 yes so so now basically the people who 16:54 16:54 are going are the ones for whom there 16:57 16:57 are jobs abroad right so yes the skilled 17:01 17:01 people are going and the unskilled 17:03 17:03 people are also going so what we have 17:07 17:07 left 17:08 17:08 are the middle skilled people 17:12 17:12 who in any case were not very employable 17:16 17:16 anyway 17:17 17:17 right so so uh 17:20 17:20 so really again you know I'm I'm getting 17:23 17:23 this uh this feeling of anxiety when I 17:27 17:27 think about it what we need to do is we 17:31 17:31 will need to 17:32 17:32 upskill 17:34 17:34 those people so so now there are two 17:37 17:37 lots we have to look at one is the group 17:41 17:41 of people young people who are already 17:43 17:43 in the education system what do we do 17:46 17:46 about them 17:47 17:47 then there are people who have left the 17:51 17:51 education system 17:53 17:53 who may be women running after their 17:55 17:55 children at home and maybe others who 17:59 17:59 are doing low skilled kind of jobs so so 18:03 18:03 we need to retrain them 18:08 18:08 however we can and then also make sure 18:12 18:12 that those who are in schools right now 18:15 18:16 leave with the competencies required to 18:19 18:19 be employable 18:20 18:20 okay 18:21 18:21 now if we look at the people in the 18:26 18:26 education system first now there we have 18:28 18:28 another challenge what with kovid right 18:31 18:31 schools were closed for a long time 18:34 18:34 then now again we have our old scenes to 18:39 18:39 deal with right before kovid there were 18:42 18:42 delays in the system uh only five 18:46 18:46 percent of grade 8 18:48 18:48 children UI children 18:51 18:51 past mathematics for instance right I 18:54 18:54 mean the these are statistics which are 18:57 18:57 well documented right so so you already 18:60 18:60 had that problem on top of that you have 19:02 19:02 covered and the lockdowns and then on 19:05 19:05 top of that you have the economic crisis 19:07 19:07 right so last year with all the 19:09 19:09 transport issues no diesel no petrol 19:12 19:12 people didn't get to school 19:15 19:15 and then you have the the impact of the 19:19 19:19 crisis on on malnutrition levels 19:23 19:23 uh and and that is going to affect the 19:26 19:26 cognitive development of these children 19:29 19:29 the children who who were not able to to 19:33 19:33 eat nutritious food and and who still 19:36 19:36 cannot eat nutritious food 19:39 19:39 so so we need to address the issue of 19:42 19:42 nutrition we need to address the issue 19:44 19:44 of of 19:48 19:48 making sure they they have the relevant 19:50 19:50 competencies and so on now the relevant 19:53 19:53 competition competencies I think I I 19:56 19:56 really don't think our Ministry of 19:58 19:58 Education is kind of aware of this I 20:01 20:01 think they they are thinking of right we 20:04 20:04 need to somehow finish those syllabuses 20:08 20:08 right now I I believe that most of those 20:12 20:12 syllabuses were 20:13 20:13 not very good anyway there is no need to 20:16 20:17 to learn something like Health Science 20:18 20:18 anymore right we we learned it but then 20:21 20:21 we couldn't look it up on Google now 20:24 20:24 everybody with the file I mean it is 20:26 20:26 accessible so I I think when it comes to 20:29 20:29 the education system you have to first 20:31 20:31 think what are the competencies 20:34 20:34 we want kids to have then regardless of 20:37 20:38 whether it's woodwork or social studies 20:40 20:40 or history or whatever right do those 20:44 20:44 bits of those subjects which will ensure 20:48 20:48 these co-competencies like to be able to 20:51 20:51 interpret 20:52 20:52 verbal and linguistic Clues to to be 20:57 20:57 Analytical 20:58 20:58 in the sense it's not what children know 21:02 21:02 it's what children can do so so we have 21:06 21:06 to completely transform the objectives 21:09 21:09 of our education system not going to be 21:12 21:12 easy because a lot of the people who are 21:14 21:14 taking the decisions about education are 21:17 21:17 those who have done well in the existing 21:20 21:20 you know they have backed as here 21:22 21:22 distinctions here they think that they 21:25 21:25 know 21:27 21:27 right because it worked for them 21:29 21:29 but you cannot replicate that system and 21:32 21:32 you shouldn't it's it's not going to 21:34 21:34 help at all we have to transform it 21:36 21:36 completely 21:39 21:39 um also doctor something that you have 21:42 21:42 been very vocal about is the fact that 21:46 21:46 the employability of the Sri Lanka 21:47 21:47 performs I think one of the issues the 21:50 21:50 one of the points that you also 21:51 21:51 mentioned like previously as well in 21:53 21:53 terms of Education 21:55 21:55 um so in terms of Sri Lanka's labor 21:58 21:58 force employability 22:00 22:00 um what are their issues and do we have 22:04 22:04 kind of 22:05 22:05 solutions for these issues at the moment 22:09 22:09 uh I 22:11 22:11 I am not aware of whether people are 22:14 22:14 thinking in terms of practical solutions 22:17 22:17 for this I don't know what the Ministry 22:20 22:20 of Education is doing I mean I learned 22:23 22:23 recently that some subcommittee 22:25 22:25 parliamentary subcommittee or something 22:27 22:27 or cabinet subcommittee has been 22:29 22:29 appointed to look into this 22:31 22:31 I think this is where we need the help 22:35 22:35 of perhaps donors right right uh and and 22:38 22:38 look at systems 22:40 22:40 which are imparting the kind of skills 22:44 22:44 that we need now I I found out 22:47 22:47 relatively recently about the day 22:49 22:49 initial and finish systems they are not 22:51 22:51 into syllabuses and all that the 22:54 22:54 whatever testing that takes place is 22:57 22:57 about what kids can do 22:59 22:59 ah so I think we need to bring in 23:02 23:02 bringing those ideas and and uh do 23:06 23:06 something about it in terms of skills 23:09 23:09 it's going to be a hard hard upward 23:14 23:14 battle yes and I think it's really 23:16 23:16 important as well because I think 23:17 23:17 sometimes we forget the fact that when 23:19 23:20 we are teaching our kids we are also 23:21 23:21 building the Next Generation the next 23:23 23:23 label Market in the country right I 23:26 23:26 think most of our policy makers also 23:29 23:29 kind of forgets about it 23:30 23:30 his there is always there's a that's I 23:34 23:34 think that's one of the reasons also for 23:36 23:36 a mismatch in the lip force in the first 23:38 23:38 place you are not supplying for the 23:41 23:41 demand that is created by the market 23:44 23:44 um that prevent that goes to our next 23:45 23:45 question as well 23:47 23:47 um in terms of the skill mismatch in the 23:49 23:49 labor force 23:50 23:50 um 23:51 23:51 why do you think there is a mismatch in 23:55 23:55 the first place in the market 23:58 23:58 uh well 24:01 24:01 basically 24:04 24:04 our children are most of them are too 24:09 24:09 educated for the jobs that are available 24:12 24:12 right that is the first thing and that 24:15 24:15 is because our production structures are 24:18 24:18 backward 24:19 24:20 so there is that kind of skills gap on 24:23 24:23 the other hand there are certain sectors 24:27 24:27 which are more advanced uh I would say 24:30 24:30 the more sort of industrial and 24:31 24:32 scientific kind of and then ITC and so 24:35 24:35 on now there the problem is 24:38 24:38 there is a big demand 24:42 24:42 but there aren't enough 24:44 24:44 people right and that again is a problem 24:48 24:48 with the general education system 24:50 24:50 because it is not it it is not producing 24:54 24:54 enough people who can do this kind of 24:57 24:57 job 24:58 24:58 for which there is a demand and many 25:00 25:00 many employers who are in those sectors 25:04 25:04 say that they prefer to get the 25:09 25:09 employees and train thems themselves 25:11 25:11 because otherwise quite often many of 25:14 25:14 them come with an attitude right which 25:17 25:17 which they can't cope with 25:20 25:20 so what really what is necessary here is 25:23 25:23 more involvement 25:25 25:25 of of firms private sector people in 25:30 25:30 deciding what kind of education we need 25:34 25:34 now actually the ITC sector there has 25:37 25:37 been ICT Tech sector there has been some 25:40 25:40 progress there a lot of the ICT 25:42 25:42 companies are on some kind of councils 25:45 25:45 in say morator University and they have 25:48 25:48 their input I think we need to develop 25:52 25:52 those in other uh areas as well and and 25:57 25:57 basically find out what the private 25:60 25:60 sector wants but of course having said 26:02 26:02 that I mean we we can't keep pointing 26:04 26:04 fingers at government 26:06 26:06 the private sector also needs to step up 26:10 26:10 they are always resentful 26:12 26:12 about the fact that they have to train 26:15 26:15 right looking for tax incentives 26:19 26:19 to do that 26:21 26:21 we are no longer in that situation I 26:25 26:25 think the private sector needs to 26:27 26:27 proactively engage even through personal 26:30 26:30 contacts with University 26:33 26:33 professors School teachers and and uh 26:38 26:38 come up with some kind of partnership 26:40 26:41 ah and it is possible to do that even at 26:44 26:44 at say provincial level you you make the 26:47 26:47 the now almost every Province every 26:50 26:50 district has a university you make that 26:53 26:53 the center and then the private sector 26:55 26:55 comes together with the employers with 26:59 26:59 the education sector and develops 27:02 27:02 curricula and provides internship you 27:05 27:05 know the the private sector needs to be 27:07 27:07 proactive they need because whatever 27:10 27:10 said and done the the skills and the 27:12 27:12 ability whatever we have are there 27:15 27:15 so they need to step up and and do what 27:19 27:19 is necessary right 27:22 27:22 um so before going we go into our next 27:24 27:24 question I would like to remind our 27:26 27:26 listeners that in this podcast we have 27:29 27:29 talked about reforms in sectors such as 27:31 27:31 education trade land and minimal so make 27:34 27:35 sure to tune into our podcast episodes 27:37 27:37 as well 27:39 27:39 um going back to our discussion doctor 27:41 27:41 so I think one of the points that I've 27:43 27:43 also mentioned by giving the context to 27:46 27:46 the discussion as well is about the 27:47 27:47 informality of the Sri Lanka's labor 27:49 27:49 force I think we have a formal and 27:51 27:51 informal sector but we are going to be 27:52 27:52 discussing as well there's a the 27:55 27:55 majority of the the labor market is also 27:58 27:58 informed very much informal 27:60 27:60 um and if you take 28:02 28:02 um if I bring a very gendered 28:03 28:03 perspective into this is like so Sri 28:05 28:05 Lanka's female if was participation is 28:07 28:07 30 while you see in the informal sector 28:09 28:09 you have around 49 47.9 of females in 28:13 28:13 the employee being employed in the 28:15 28:15 informal sector itself 28:17 28:17 um 28:18 28:18 so how does the cost of Labor loss 28:23 28:23 um attracts more people into the 28:26 28:26 informal sector rather than the formal 28:28 28:28 sector 28:29 28:29 yes of course now although people focus 28:32 28:32 on labor laws there there are a lot more 28:36 28:36 laws which which cause this problem 28:39 28:39 now for example take Teva terminations 28:43 28:43 or determination of employment or 28:45 28:45 workman's act now that kicks in when the 28:49 28:49 the number of employees in a firm uh 28:53 28:53 tops 14. 28:55 28:55 so there is an incentive 28:58 28:58 theoretically there is an incentive to 28:60 28:60 keep the 29:01 29:01 firm small and not grow employment 29:05 29:05 so you will find that there is a 29:08 29:08 conglomerate a little little little 29:10 29:10 businesses because you register each 29:13 29:13 business separately and you keep it 29:15 29:15 under 15 or 40 which the whole thing 29:17 29:17 which is inefficient now the World Bank 29:22 29:22 for at least 30 years has been trying to 29:25 29:25 prove that Teva is a problem but there 29:29 29:29 is an what what is known to 29:31 29:31 econometricians as an identification 29:34 29:34 problem you see it's not only Teva that 29:37 29:37 kicks in at 14. the Inland Revenue Act 29:40 29:40 kicks in at 14 and I would personally 29:43 29:43 think that that is a bigger problem 29:44 29:44 because you have to pay your tax every 29:47 29:47 year every quarter now 29:49 29:49 right but the termination and 29:53 29:53 compensation only when a worker leaves 29:56 29:56 which is not every quarter probably 29:58 29:58 right so so there are a whole lot of 30:00 30:00 laws 30:02 30:02 which may encourage businesses to be 30:07 30:07 informal and keep under the radar 30:10 30:11 and and there there is a lot of 30:13 30:13 literature a worldwide to show that 30:17 30:17 these kinds of barriers 30:21 30:21 uh incentivize 30:23 30:23 firms or business people to exit 30:27 30:27 rationally exit the formal sector right 30:31 30:31 on the other hand there are certain 30:34 30:34 barriers which any which make p which 30:38 30:38 exclude people from the formal sector 30:40 30:40 because they don't have maybe the skills 30:42 30:42 I mean if you have to pay taxes and 30:44 30:44 various other things you you may have to 30:47 30:47 have a p you may have to have people who 30:50 30:50 are who know those things you have to 30:53 30:53 have a dedicated uh staff member who has 30:57 30:57 to see so so these are all barriers it's 30:60 30:60 true but having said that you can't do 31:03 31:03 away with these things because the 31:05 31:05 fundamental rationale for labor law is 31:08 31:08 unequal bargaining power right 31:10 31:10 so what we need to do is to to make sure 31:15 31:15 that our that we can 31:18 31:18 adjust our Workforce our production 31:21 31:21 structures 31:23 31:23 in terms of demand and remaining 31:26 31:26 competitive while not sacrificing the 31:30 31:30 welfare of our workers it's a hard thing 31:33 31:33 but it is what we need to do 31:36 31:36 right which makes sense 31:38 31:38 um 31:39 31:39 talking about the levelers I think this 31:42 31:42 is where you also came up came up as a 31:45 31:45 consultant for one of our projects which 31:47 31:47 was done about gender dismissed labor 31:49 31:49 laws yeah I think that is about mainly 31:52 31:52 about talking about nighttime work 31:53 31:53 part-time work flexible time work and we 31:56 31:56 have been talking this for like one past 31:58 31:59 one year I think this the conversation 32:01 32:01 started in last 2022 but the research 32:05 32:05 was done before that even 32:07 32:08 um I think with the labor laws 32:10 32:10 conversation coming up there was a lot 32:12 32:12 of pushbacks from different stakeholders 32:14 32:14 in terms of being these labor laws 32:17 32:17 recognized under the the law so 32:22 32:22 technically lifetime work women can't 32:24 32:24 work after 8 PM uh flexible time work 32:26 32:26 part-time work is not recognized under 32:28 32:28 the law 32:29 32:29 um what is your opinion regarding this 32:32 32:32 do you think this kind of like this 32:34 32:34 setback from the stakeholders happen 32:37 32:38 um is it because like they have a 32:40 32:40 different opinion to uh the labor laws 32:43 32:43 that has been discussed so far or is it 32:45 32:45 just from a perspective of this 32:48 32:48 protectionist at the protect the 32:50 32:50 protecting the women 32:52 32:52 um kind of a mindset 32:55 32:55 um well some of these laws begin in a 32:59 32:59 sort of a very paternalistic way to 33:02 33:02 protect women 33:03 33:03 but 33:04 33:05 Factory fact work women workers in 33:08 33:08 factories didn't seem to deserve as much 33:10 33:11 protection as 33:12 33:12 workers in shops and offices so there 33:14 33:14 was a class issue here as well and to 33:18 33:18 date uh 33:20 33:20 fact women workers in factories can work 33:23 33:23 at night but 33:25 33:25 women workers in shops and offices can't 33:28 33:28 so there are certain anomalies in the 33:31 33:31 law like that which we have to rectify 33:33 33:33 these class based structures 33:36 33:36 on the other hand if you look at 33:38 33:38 part-time work 33:39 33:39 uh 33:41 33:41 even the the desire to reform laws like 33:47 33:47 that 33:49 33:49 they make 33:51 33:51 I would say they make economic sense and 33:54 33:54 I would tell I I will go into that in a 33:56 33:56 little while but I think the the process 33:60 34:00 of reform 34:02 34:02 has not been handled wisely correct 34:05 34:05 although I have uh 34:08 34:08 I I although you know me as having been 34:12 34:12 involved in this for the last two years 34:13 34:14 actually I have been involved in this 34:16 34:16 area since 1995 which is a very long 34:19 34:19 time for you you may not even have been 34:21 34:21 born at that time yes but the thing is 34:24 34:24 you see uh this this was an area in 34:28 34:28 which I first started work as a 34:30 34:30 researcher and what is noticeable is 34:33 34:33 that there is no effort to discuss 34:37 34:37 between the partners the the industrial 34:40 34:40 Partners the this historical 34:43 34:43 adversarial Labor Relations which we 34:45 34:45 really inherited 34:47 34:47 has continued 34:50 34:50 and uh 34:51 34:51 in fact in 1995 when the Government 34:54 34:54 tried to introduce a worker's Charter to 34:57 34:57 rectify a lot of the problems like like 34:60 34:60 discrimination against uh workers found 35:04 35:04 to be trying to form trade unions uh the 35:08 35:08 the I I'm sorry to say the employees 35:12 35:12 reacted in a very immature way 35:15 35:15 this cupboard the whole process 35:19 35:19 which made a discussion and negotiation 35:23 35:23 there doesn't seem any is there we don't 35:26 35:26 seem to have a culture of that 35:29 35:29 in this country where you know you 35:32 35:32 recognize the other party's concerns and 35:35 35:35 then you start working 35:37 35:37 with them we don't have a culture like 35:39 35:39 that of course I I have to admit that 35:42 35:42 not admit I have to point out that they 35:44 35:44 are that kind of countries lacking in 35:46 35:46 many countries 35:48 35:48 right I would say now the Ukrainian war 35:50 35:50 is one is the biggest and most 35:53 35:53 destructive example of that so so we 35:56 35:56 need to to I mean everybody knows the 35:60 35:60 laws that have to be reformed 36:02 36:02 right what we need to do is develop a 36:05 36:05 process which will be acceptable which 36:09 36:09 will be legitimate and which will 36:11 36:11 address the concerns of both parties so 36:14 36:14 that is the missing piece here 36:17 36:17 which needs to be addressed as for 36:19 36:20 part-time work I mean so so having said 36:23 36:23 that you you can understand that there 36:25 36:25 is always this historical distrust 36:28 36:28 because the the unions are always 36:33 36:33 expecting the 36:35 36:35 employers to steal a march on them by 36:38 36:38 getting the year of the political Powers 36:40 36:40 involved and being feisted with some 36:43 36:43 reform 36:44 36:44 on the other hand the unions 36:47 36:47 particularly through through the large 36:49 36:49 and Powerful unions in the public sector 36:53 36:53 are waiting to block any such reform 36:56 36:56 right so that is why even now I have my 37:01 37:01 doubts that this will go smoothly 37:05 37:05 as for part-time work I mean there have 37:08 37:08 been concerns expressed not only in 37:10 37:10 terms of this now for example in a 37:13 37:13 recent meeting Mr Leslie Devendra who's 37:15 37:15 who's the Secretary of the the Sri Lanka 37:20 37:20 sorry it's it's the old slfp Union I 37:23 37:23 can't keep up with the changes in names 37:26 37:26 that have been going on since then I 37:28 37:28 mean he pointed out that flexible work 37:31 37:31 can lead to exploitation uh and you can 37:36 37:36 find people having to work 16 hours a 37:38 37:38 day so that is true so so what we need 37:42 37:42 to do is we need to put in safeguards 37:45 37:45 which will ensure the work ensure that 37:49 37:49 people can have work-life balance 37:52 37:52 because if you don't have that you are 37:54 37:54 going to have another problem which is 37:56 37:56 women will be so stressed they will be 37:59 37:59 taking all sorts of 38:01 38:01 drugs probably to be able to cope 38:04 38:04 apparently it's a rampant in the U.S 38:07 38:07 women cannot cope 38:09 38:09 too much to do too much pressure so so 38:13 38:13 we we don't need to um 38:16 38:16 we we cannot afford to kill people 38:19 38:19 in order to grow economically so so we 38:23 38:23 need to have those safe cars but it 38:26 38:26 needs to be discussed as for part-time 38:28 38:29 work it's not only women students 38:33 38:33 students can do part-time work help pay 38:36 38:36 for their courses and and most 38:39 38:39 importantly develop networks get work 38:42 38:42 experience so that either they can uh I 38:46 38:46 mean their employability is going to 38:47 38:47 increase or they will have the 38:49 38:49 experience to start their own businesses 38:52 38:52 so so I would say that that this these 38:55 38:55 labor reforms related to our work are a 38:58 38:58 low hanging fruit right you know get it 39:01 39:01 through fast but of course make sure 39:04 39:04 that people's rights are protected 39:08 39:08 I think that's a very good point that 39:10 39:10 you mentioned Dr about part-time 39:11 39:11 Workforce students because I went to a 39:14 39:14 State University so until live is around 39:16 39:16 24 25 I didn't get into a job because I 39:19 39:19 was in this because it's in the State 39:20 39:20 University system itself right because 39:23 39:23 you do your oil levels and there's like 39:24 39:24 a one year Gap until you get into the 39:26 39:26 university itself and there's another 39:28 39:29 four years so because of kovid and the 39:31 39:31 community crisis there was lags behind 39:33 39:33 here and there so by until 23 24 I was 39:37 39:37 not employed so if there was a part-time 39:40 39:40 system in the place in in itself from 39:44 39:44 the first day onwards we could have you 39:45 39:45 know do our degrees while doing a 39:48 39:48 part-time job so getting the experience 39:50 39:50 the exposure while you get your degree 39:52 39:52 so that that is something that is should 39:55 39:55 be changed very importantly that is how 39:58 39:58 we increase the labor Supply 40:00 40:00 and and if women could do part-time work 40:03 40:03 even while study even they get married 40:06 40:06 and you know they see to their children 40:07 40:08 then they will be able to come back to 40:10 40:10 work more easily because they can tell 40:12 40:12 the employees yes I worked in this 40:14 40:14 organization I did this 40:17 40:17 thanks uh I mean this is to actually to 40:21 40:21 hold this back is a National Crime 40:24 40:24 uh we we cannot lose any more time on 40:27 40:27 this our situation is desperate as I 40:31 40:31 told you about the population aging 40:33 40:33 Factor the we behind demographic crisis 40:37 40:37 we cannot hide from this so this is one 40:40 40:40 way we can we can hope to come out of 40:44 40:44 this until maybe about five to seven 40:47 40:47 years when our people come back and help 40:51 40:51 to to to to to to finally develop our 40:55 40:55 country 40:57 40:57 um to wrap up our discussion doctor I 40:58 40:58 would like to ask you this one question 40:60 40:60 so since the government has taken the 41:02 41:02 initiative of talking about these labor 41:04 41:04 reforms 41:05 41:05 um according to you what are the areas 41:07 41:08 that they should give priority to 41:10 41:10 I I would say say hours of work right so 41:14 41:14 basically part-time work part-time work 41:16 41:16 uh 41:17 41:17 also laws which enable people to work 41:21 41:21 from home while 41:24 41:24 you see there are issues he's working 41:27 41:27 from home like working in the office or 41:30 41:30 does the you do occupational and safety 41:33 41:33 those laws apply there are lots of 41:35 41:35 issues like that mean which need to be 41:38 41:38 worked out but working from home 41:40 41:40 part-time work and flexible working 41:43 41:43 hours where in in this sense if a woman 41:46 41:46 wants to come to work by 9 30 and go 41:50 41:50 eight hours later you know they are 41:52 41:52 there should be the flexibility to do 41:55 41:56 that but of course not not for people to 41:59 41:59 be working 16 hours 42:02 42:02 um so we have come to the end of our 42:04 42:04 episode today thank you so much doctor 42:06 42:06 for joining with us today I think this 42:08 42:08 was a very fruitful conversation 42:10 42:10 um and to summarize what we have 42:12 42:12 discussed today so far so we started off 42:15 42:15 with the labor structure and we talked 42:17 42:17 about the female Air Force participation 42:19 42:19 and the difference between the the gap 42:21 42:21 between the lip Force participation 42:23 42:23 rates and then how this crisis has 42:26 42:26 affected the Aging population in Sri 42:28 42:28 Lanka and the migration and really 42:31 42:31 touched a little bit upon about the 42:33 42:33 labor laws and the informal sectors of 42:35 42:35 the country and then 42:38 42:38 um finally we wrapped up our 42:39 42:39 conversation by talking about the 42:41 42:41 low-hanging fruit which is the working 42:43 42:43 hours thank you everyone for listening 42:45 42:45 and watching the raysetna podcast see 42:47 42:47 you again in the next episode 42:49 42:49 you can listen to this podcast on anchor 42:52 42:52 Stitcher Apple podcast Google podcast 42:55 42:55 and Spotify if you enjoyed this episode 42:58 42:58 remember to like comment and subscribe 43:01 43:01 and remember to follow us on all our 43:03 43:03 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