00:00 hello everyone thank you all for joining 00:02 00:02 us today 00:03 00:03 this is advocate's first twitter space 00:06 00:06 and we'll be discussing kovit 00:08 00:08 and education and whether the covid 00:11 00:11 educational crisis will become 00:13 00:13 a generational catastrophe joining us 00:16 00:16 today 00:16 00:16 is dr sujatha gamake and dr tara dimel 00:20 00:20 dr gamake is currently a senior research 00:23 00:23 fellow at learn asia 00:25 00:25 a regional think tank based in colombo 00:27 00:27 sri lanka 00:28 00:28 and dr gamake specializes in planning 00:31 00:31 evaluation 00:32 00:32 and capacity building in education ict 00:35 00:35 in education 00:36 00:36 research and research networks and 00:39 00:39 public sector performance 00:40 00:40 using data analytics institutional 00:43 00:43 research scoping studies systematic 00:45 00:45 reviews 00:46 00:46 statistical methods and simulations dr 00:50 00:50 dimel 00:50 00:50 is a medical doctor who was a senior 00:53 00:53 lecturer in 00:54 00:54 physiology at the faculty of medicine 00:57 00:57 university of colombo 00:58 00:58 after serving as director of sri lanka 01:01 01:01 foundation 01:02 01:02 institute she was appointed adviser to 01:04 01:04 the president on social infrastructure 01:07 01:07 with the primary responsibilities of 01:09 01:09 education and health sector reforms 01:12 01:12 she served as the vice chairperson in 01:15 01:15 policy 01:16 01:16 in the national education commission and 01:19 01:19 as the secretary for the ministry of 01:21 01:21 education and higher education 01:24 01:24 thank you for joining us today dr gama 01:26 01:26 gay and dr dimel 01:27 01:27 to start off our discussion will you be 01:30 01:30 able to give us a little bit of context 01:32 01:32 as to the current situation with kovid 01:34 01:34 and its impact on education 01:36 01:36 please go ahead dr gamake thank you 01:40 01:40 thank you sumer and uh to start to give 01:43 01:43 a context let's 01:44 01:44 start from where we were before the core 01:47 01:47 weight hit 01:48 01:48 that is before march 22nd we had 01:52 01:52 in terms of primary education we almost 01:54 01:54 had almost 100 01:56 01:56 100 percent attendance if you take 01:58 01:58 junior secondary that is 01:60 01:60 up to year 11 it was you could say it's 02:03 02:03 about 85 percent 02:04 02:04 because from grade 6 to until about 02:07 02:07 the students sit for the oliver's 02:09 02:09 there's a gradual 02:10 02:10 loss dropouts rate and then 02:14 02:14 about 85 percent of the original cohorts 02:16 02:16 sit for the whole level so let's say 85 02:18 02:18 attendance so school attendance rate is 02:21 02:21 you know what's a measure the measure of 02:23 02:23 access we use the quality of education 02:25 02:25 is a different thing 02:26 02:26 but this is the situation before kobe 02:30 02:30 and then kovid hit and scores are closed 02:33 02:33 and then they open briefly they were 02:35 02:35 closed on and off 02:37 02:37 in november 2020 we did a survey 02:41 02:41 because there was no data so we 02:44 02:44 asked we took teachers two teachers from 02:47 02:47 each of the 25 districts 02:49 02:49 we selected teachers who are done made a 02:52 02:52 good effort 02:53 02:53 and we asked them what did you use how 02:55 02:55 did you contact your students 02:57 02:57 almost all of them because these are you 02:59 02:59 know teachers who would have 03:01 03:01 made a good effort they said they tried 03:03 03:03 they use smart they are smart force to 03:05 03:05 reach the students and almost all of 03:06 03:06 them use whatsapp 03:08 03:08 and then we asked how many in your class 03:10 03:10 and how many are you able to reach 03:12 03:12 that's the problem on an average 03:15 03:15 they were able to reach only 45 percent 03:17 03:17 of their students 03:19 03:19 so now i mean so that is the number that 03:22 03:22 we should you know really be looking at 03:25 03:25 when it's distance education is 03:26 03:26 not attendance anymore we need to find a 03:29 03:29 new number 03:30 03:30 so what is this new number what is the 03:33 03:33 difference you know when you go to 03:34 03:34 school 03:35 03:35 and when you stay at home what's the 03:37 03:37 difference when you go to school 03:39 03:39 you interact with other children and you 03:41 03:41 interact with the teacher 03:42 03:42 when you stay at home you don't have 03:45 03:45 that 03:45 03:45 so i think we really need to be looking 03:47 03:47 at not attendance at this stage we have 03:49 03:49 to look at the engagement 03:51 03:51 because at school also the school 03:53 03:53 attendance is actually 03:55 03:55 engagement exercise it's about engaging 03:57 03:57 with your teacher 03:58 03:58 and with others so if you take student 04:01 04:01 engagement 04:02 04:02 it's less than 50 so that is is a 04:05 04:05 serious matter because that 04:06 04:06 is a number we have to name it we have 04:08 04:08 to call it okay what is 04:10 04:10 engagement and how much is it the 04:12 04:12 problem is we are not paying attention 04:14 04:14 to that we are just taking whoever is 04:17 04:17 you know you can take on with on this 04:19 04:19 online bandwagon and don't run with it 04:22 04:22 that's what's happening 04:23 04:23 all these children are under the radar 04:26 04:26 even when schools are open 04:28 04:28 they were under the radar but at least 04:29 04:29 they got to go to the under the red line 04:31 04:31 meaning that 04:32 04:32 they did not get the same facilities as 04:34 04:34 other kids would 04:35 04:35 but at least they got to go to school 04:37 04:37 interact with a 04:38 04:38 caring adult a teacher and interact with 04:41 04:41 other children 04:42 04:42 so they did right now they don't 50 more 04:45 04:45 than 50 percent of our children don't 04:47 04:47 have that so that 04:48 04:48 is the context uh the current context 04:52 04:52 uh dr dimel is there anything uh that 04:55 04:55 you would like to add uh 04:56 04:56 with regards to what dr gamake has 04:58 04:58 mentioned yes i'd just like to add a 05:01 05:01 global perspective to what surrounder 05:03 05:03 said 05:04 05:04 march 2020 when the pandemic hit 05:08 05:08 abruptly globally every single school 05:11 05:11 shutdown 05:13 05:13 so since world war ii this is perhaps 05:15 05:15 only time that universally 05:18 05:18 every school in every country had to 05:20 05:20 shut down so that 05:21 05:21 actually ousted something like 1.6 05:25 05:25 students from physical real-time 05:28 05:28 face-to-face learning from that 05:32 05:32 comfort zone into a no education zone 05:36 05:36 so from that group we had a few 05:39 05:39 countries a few countries with 05:41 05:41 upper in upper or middle income status 05:44 05:44 that swiftly transited into online 05:47 05:47 learning and that's very few 05:48 05:48 even globally a few countries in 05:51 05:51 southeast asia 05:52 05:52 few in northern europe and few countries 05:55 05:55 like israel 05:56 05:56 were able to swiftly transit almost all 05:59 05:59 their students into an 06:00 06:00 online internet based education platform 06:04 06:04 but the large majority got thrust into 06:07 06:07 a situation where they had no education 06:11 06:11 at all so the education crisis of 06:14 06:14 kovid actually is a very 06:17 06:17 neglected ignored or rather 06:20 06:20 relegated situation this is the point 06:23 06:23 that i'd like to make 06:25 06:25 it's the most under appreciated 06:26 06:26 situation in this crisis 06:28 06:28 of course the pandemic is a public 06:30 06:30 health crisis 06:32 06:32 it's devastating then no sooner that 06:34 06:34 happened the economic crisis 06:36 06:36 kicked in and countries like sri lanka 06:38 06:38 felt it more than 06:39 06:39 others but still biannia are not even 06:42 06:42 talking about the education crisis 06:44 06:44 and that it has a huge potential to 06:46 06:46 become a generational crisis where a 06:49 06:49 generation of students 06:50 06:50 left without education for more than 06:54 06:54 14-15 months with a smattering of 06:57 06:57 internet-based 06:58 06:58 education which is largely on 07:00 07:00 whatsapp-based pdf notes 07:03 07:03 and not real online teaching 07:05 07:05 face-to-face 07:06 07:06 so it's a very serious situation because 07:08 07:08 we are going to be left with 07:09 07:09 a generation of students who have either 07:12 07:12 dropped out of school 07:13 07:13 or who are under educated or uneducated 07:17 07:17 who will 07:17 07:17 enter society years later after the 07:20 07:20 pandemic has settled 07:22 07:22 in a very harsh and socially and 07:25 07:25 economically compromised 07:27 07:27 post-pandemic situation such a group of 07:30 07:30 people 07:30 07:30 will enter society with major 07:32 07:32 consequences 07:33 07:33 that's the global aspect that i just 07:35 07:35 like to add towards another thing 07:37 07:37 thank you for that uh so i think these 07:39 07:39 times have been 07:40 07:40 very difficult for many children across 07:42 07:42 the island and one of the main 07:44 07:44 issues is accessibility uh for them when 07:47 07:47 it comes to online classes 07:49 07:49 uh what are the percentage of kids who 07:51 07:51 have had access to smartphones and 07:54 07:54 laptops 07:54 07:54 and what happened to the rest i think dr 07:57 07:57 dimel if you could start 07:58 07:58 and uh dr gammage you can please add on 08:01 08:01 afterwards 08:01 08:01 yeah so uh if you look at the sri yankan 08:04 08:04 student population of 4.3 million 08:07 08:07 students distributed across 08:08 08:08 10 100 schools it's about between 08:12 08:12 45 percent and 50 percent of students 08:16 08:16 who have access to internet out of that 08:20 08:20 group and this is not broadband or 08:22 08:22 high-speed internet just basic internet 08:25 08:25 uh out of that group about 30 to 35 08:28 08:28 percent 08:29 08:29 in some parts of the country much less 08:32 08:32 have access 08:33 08:33 to devices when i say devices i'm 08:35 08:35 talking of laptops 08:37 08:37 personal computers smartphones tabs and 08:40 08:40 so on 08:41 08:41 so there again with that number alone 08:44 08:44 you know that a large number 08:46 08:46 well over 50 has been left without the 08:48 08:48 so-called 08:49 08:49 online or internet based education so 08:52 08:52 even those who had some form of internet 08:56 08:56 access they had to deal with 08:58 08:58 teachers sending notes on whatsapp 09:01 09:01 like i mentioned about four to five 09:04 09:04 percent of students 09:05 09:05 particularly in privileged schools or 09:08 09:08 privileged communities 09:10 09:10 urban based they had real-time online 09:13 09:13 learning 09:14 09:14 um through apps like zoom 09:17 09:17 or teams and so on through google 09:19 09:19 classrooms 09:20 09:20 so we need to be cognizant of the fact 09:22 09:22 that when we talk of 09:24 09:24 panda makes schools have shut down 09:25 09:25 online learning has started 09:27 09:27 we must be very real that online 09:29 09:29 learning has actually not 09:31 09:31 started for the vast majority of uh dr 09:34 09:34 gamake if you could add to that and tell 09:36 09:36 us a little bit about 09:38 09:38 uh how it has uh impacted uh children 09:41 09:41 who have not had access to 09:43 09:43 uh smartphones and laptops obviously 09:46 09:46 they 09:46 09:46 are you know they're left out they're 09:48 09:48 just totally 09:49 09:49 off the radar nobody uh people don't 09:53 09:53 even realize they are not 09:54 09:54 they're off the radar because you know 09:56 09:56 our reality is 09:58 09:58 our education is really designed by 10:00 10:00 professionals run by professionals for 10:03 10:03 children like theirs so this 10:06 10:06 children are off the radar but let me 10:09 10:09 look at it from another way let's look 10:11 10:11 at the 10:12 10:12 look at it as a half glass half full 10:15 10:15 situation you know let's look at start 10:17 10:17 from these children let's see what they 10:19 10:19 have not what they don't have let's 10:20 10:20 start from 10:22 10:22 start really then then you you know when 10:25 10:25 you 10:25 10:25 focus on this bottom of the pyramid then 10:28 10:28 you begin to see new ways of doing 10:30 10:30 things let's see what they have all of 10:31 10:31 them have 10:32 10:32 textbooks and workbooks in some ways 10:35 10:35 these are printed in color 10:36 10:36 usually what happens in classes is the 10:39 10:39 teacher really repeats what's in the 10:41 10:41 textbook on the blackboard and the 10:42 10:42 children write it down the children are 10:44 10:44 not 10:45 10:45 encouraged to read and then think about 10:47 10:47 it so that's a 10:48 10:48 that's talk and talk kind of teaching 10:50 10:50 that happens 10:52 10:52 and the textbooks is really not used so 10:54 10:54 right now the children have the 10:56 10:56 textbooks in their hands at home 10:58 10:58 and we have 240 000 teachers 11:01 11:01 the average student teacher ratio is 11:05 11:05 16 that is um for every 16 11:08 11:08 students we have one teacher this is a 11:10 11:10 really good rate in most countries it's 11:12 11:12 in the 20s 11:14 11:14 then we have that human resource and 11:16 11:16 then our mobile rate 11:19 11:19 ownership or access to a mobile if you 11:21 11:21 take households 96 percent of households 11:24 11:24 have access to 4. 40 nearly 11:26 11:26 48 percent of 50 only only 48 11:30 11:30 or 50 of those would be smartphones 11:34 11:34 but there's analog phone in in every 11:36 11:36 house almost 11:37 11:37 so we have those three things and i 11:39 11:39 think with those three 11:41 11:41 if we use it correctly if we use it 11:43 11:43 creatively 11:44 11:44 we can reach to each and every one of 11:46 11:46 these child the first is the 11:48 11:48 understand there is a problem fifty 11:51 11:51 percent of our children 11:52 11:52 are not engaged in education 11:55 11:55 and we need to start from them and they 11:58 11:58 have these resources 11:60 11:60 and how do we use these resources so we 12:02 12:02 can talk more about how to use that but 12:04 12:04 i think that is the starting point the 12:06 12:06 glass is half full 12:08 12:08 we are actually better off than most 12:10 12:10 countries in south asia the rest of the 12:12 12:12 developing countries 12:14 12:14 so let's start from that i would say so 12:16 12:16 dr nimal 12:17 12:17 can you tell us a little bit about how 12:19 12:19 many children 12:20 12:20 have stopped studying and how many 12:22 12:22 children have dropped out of school 12:25 12:25 and how has their livelihood have been 12:27 12:27 affected and 12:28 12:28 especially girls what are the 12:30 12:30 consequences they have had to face 12:33 12:33 yeah so let me start by saying that 12:36 12:36 when children go to school it's not just 12:39 12:39 for education what they have missed 12:41 12:41 in other words what they have missed 12:42 12:42 these last 15 or 16 months 12:45 12:45 they've missed obviously an education 12:47 12:47 they've also missed their friends 12:50 12:50 they've also been sports they've missed 12:52 12:52 playing cricket 12:53 12:53 playing netball basketball they've 12:55 12:55 missed their boyfriends and their 12:56 12:56 girlfriends 12:57 12:57 they've missed their social 12:60 12:60 co-curricular 13:01 13:01 extracurricular activity so they've 13:03 13:03 missed 13:04 13:04 a lot so that's seriously 13:07 13:07 uh it's a serious impact on their social 13:10 13:10 emotional learning 13:11 13:11 they are mental health situations they 13:14 13:14 are anxiety states 13:16 13:16 and most of these children who are 13:18 13:18 virtually trapped 13:20 13:20 in at home and they have been trapped 13:22 13:22 for the last 15 16 months 13:24 13:24 they have they may have faced abusive 13:26 13:26 homes homes where parental conflicts 13:29 13:29 are very predominant uh in some of the 13:32 13:32 poorer parts of sri lanka 13:34 13:34 the midday meal they used to get in the 13:36 13:36 school they have missed 13:38 13:38 so there would be nutritional problems 13:40 13:40 so there are 13:41 13:41 multiple aspects that we need to take 13:43 13:43 into consideration 13:45 13:45 you mentioned girls it's not so 13:47 13:47 prevalent in sri lanka except in 13:49 13:49 few pockets in some provinces only 13:52 13:52 where when the young girls miss out on 13:55 13:55 school 13:55 13:55 for a long period they are very often 13:58 13:58 encouraged to consider 13:59 13:59 marriage particularly teenage girls it's 14:02 14:02 not very prevalent in sri lanka like i 14:04 14:04 mentioned 14:05 14:05 but it is extremely prevalent in other 14:07 14:07 parts of 14:08 14:08 south asia as you probably know so 14:10 14:10 children get coerced into labor to join 14:13 14:13 their families livelihoods like farming 14:16 14:16 or as fishermen 14:17 14:17 or sometimes like i mentioned into early 14:20 14:20 marriage 14:21 14:21 so those are very serious issues um 14:25 14:25 we don't have data we don't have numbers 14:27 14:27 about 14:28 14:28 how many have actually done that but the 14:31 14:31 dropout rate is apparently high 14:34 14:34 some people are currently doing some 14:36 14:36 studies on that 14:37 14:37 so hopefully in the months to come we 14:39 14:39 will know whether we have a much 14:41 14:41 higher dropout rate in the teenage 14:44 14:44 adults and years 14:45 14:45 than what it used to be pre-covered at 14:48 14:48 the moment i don't have actual data to 14:50 14:50 give you 14:50 14:50 uh so dr dimel you mentioned uh mental 14:54 14:54 health and physical health and i think 14:57 14:57 online classes has affected both mental 14:60 14:60 and physical health of children 15:01 15:01 um how would you say that it has 15:04 15:04 affected firstly their mental health 15:06 15:06 uh firstly if i talk about students who 15:10 15:10 haven't 15:11 15:11 gone to who are not in online learning 15:14 15:14 students who are actually at home but 15:16 15:16 they know that exams are scheduled 15:18 15:18 they don't have access to proper 15:20 15:20 education so the anxieties 15:23 15:23 of having to face an exam someday 15:26 15:26 and the anxieties of not being able to 15:28 15:28 cope with the higher grade that they are 15:31 15:31 going into those are serious issues 15:34 15:34 for a student and it's definitely going 15:36 15:36 to affect the mental health 15:38 15:38 status of a student that's number one 15:40 15:40 just take the group 15:41 15:41 even a small group that is actually 15:44 15:44 exposed to the internet 15:45 15:45 and they are having online lectures they 15:48 15:48 are exposed to the internet you know 15:50 15:50 what 15:50 15:50 internet can do for teenagers 15:53 15:53 for adolescents you know the internet 15:55 15:55 predators 15:56 15:56 child pornography there are so many 15:59 15:59 sinister temptations 16:00 16:00 which can be your young students who are 16:04 16:04 locked in a room with a computer and 16:06 16:06 internet for long hours so that's 16:08 16:08 very serious and there is another thing 16:10 16:10 that this has 16:11 16:11 come out in some studies done in canada 16:14 16:14 and the us 16:15 16:15 have students some students have 16:17 16:17 actually they are able to self 16:19 16:19 oust them from online learning with the 16:22 16:22 press 16:22 16:22 of a but because they are in control and 16:24 16:24 if they are not wanting to continue with 16:26 16:26 a lesson 16:27 16:27 they can just click themselves off so 16:30 16:30 those are 16:30 16:30 real practical situations but let me 16:33 16:33 reiterate that our 16:34 16:34 problem of online learning and the 16:37 16:37 attendant issues are just 16:39 16:39 confined to about five percent of the 16:41 16:41 student population the other issues 16:43 16:43 are much greater because fifty percent 16:45 16:45 of students 16:46 16:46 are without that uh like women 16:50 16:50 uh dr gamake is there anything that you 16:52 16:52 would like to add 16:53 16:53 uh on what dr demille has stated so far 16:55 16:55 okay so dr 16:56 16:56 dimel was telling us a little bit about 16:58 16:58 the 16:59 16:59 mental health effects that children have 17:02 17:02 had on online classes so if you could 17:04 17:04 tell us 17:04 17:04 a little bit about that as well as how 17:07 17:07 it has impacted their physical health 17:09 17:09 especially 17:10 17:10 uh the fact that they've had to uh 17:13 17:13 spend long hours sitting in front of a 17:15 17:15 computer uh so if you could tell us a 17:17 17:17 little bit on that yes 17:18 17:18 you know obviously in some ways it's all 17:21 17:21 too obvious you know when we can't you 17:23 17:23 know sit in front of a computer and pay 17:25 17:25 that much attention for that long 17:27 17:27 so can you imagine how what children 17:29 17:29 would go through 17:30 17:30 so let's think about you know we really 17:33 17:33 need to 17:34 17:34 rethink about education it should not be 17:37 17:37 the same education 17:38 17:38 that you uh delivered in school 17:42 17:42 that you should not think of doing the 17:44 17:44 same thing you know 17:46 17:46 we need people at the higher level 17:48 17:48 policy making level they have to think 17:50 17:50 about this you know this is now a 17:51 17:51 different situation this home-based 17:53 17:53 learning 17:54 17:54 how how do we adapt to that so i think 17:57 17:57 let me talk about some solutions 17:59 17:59 you know first thing is most countries 18:02 18:02 what they did when the pandemic hit is 18:04 18:04 they defined what's called 18:06 18:06 emergency compressed curriculum they 18:08 18:08 identify what is essential 18:10 18:10 and sent it out and they have had it on 18:12 18:12 the websites if you take bhutan the 18:14 18:14 royal education council they did just 18:16 18:16 that 18:16 18:16 you can't expect when children are based 18:19 18:19 in homes 18:20 18:20 and the education is in the distance 18:22 18:22 mode you can't expect the same kind of 18:24 18:24 education so we really 18:26 18:26 need to do the simple few simple things 18:29 18:29 to change the content not really change 18:32 18:32 a lot just take a lot out we have 18:34 18:34 in our education the essential the 18:36 18:36 learning competencies are very well 18:38 18:38 defined for 18:39 18:39 all the subjects for each term what the 18:42 18:42 children child should know and can do so 18:45 18:45 we really what we need to do is identify 18:47 18:47 the essential learning competencies 18:49 18:49 and it's not such a difficult thing and 18:51 18:51 for 16 months we have not done that 18:54 18:54 you know we are behaving as if you know 18:57 18:57 this 18:57 18:57 it's the same old situation and this is 18:59 18:59 like we're pretending that you know 19:02 19:02 nothing has changed 19:03 19:03 the teachers should be teaching just the 19:05 19:05 same the only the medium is 19:06 19:06 changed no it's very different it's a 19:09 19:09 home-based environment 19:10 19:10 so first thing is to reduce the content 19:13 19:13 we can easily do that 19:14 19:14 and we have asked the ministry we inform 19:17 19:17 them given them suggestions and they 19:19 19:19 have actually told us they are actually 19:21 19:21 working on 19:21 19:21 so hopefully very soon um 19:25 19:25 from the center we will hear that there 19:27 19:27 is um 19:29 19:29 there are essential learning 19:30 19:30 competencies and teachers need to focus 19:32 19:32 on those 19:33 19:33 and then we need to have a diagnostic 19:36 19:36 test 19:37 19:37 you know now we have they have supposed 19:39 19:39 to have spent one year in certain grade 19:41 19:41 what have they learned are we going to 19:43 19:43 test all 13 subjects for say 19:46 19:46 for children in grades 6 to 11 no 19:50 19:50 we have to just identify the essential 19:52 19:52 learning competencies say in core 19:53 19:53 subjects 19:55 19:55 and do a diagnostic test we should not 19:57 19:57 be looking at 19:58 19:58 schools how they do this but should be 20:01 20:01 focusing on outcomes 20:02 20:02 so i think it is difficult for children 20:05 20:05 and 20:06 20:06 i'm i was talking only about the 20:08 20:08 educational part 20:10 20:10 how about the mental health part what 20:11 20:11 can we do i think again we have 20:14 20:14 solutions i think 20:15 20:15 at least once a week i think a teacher 20:18 20:18 should be 20:19 20:19 calling the child once a week is 20:21 20:21 actually not 20:22 20:22 enough at least once a day there's no 20:25 20:25 reason why 20:26 20:26 a teacher cannot call a child 20:29 20:29 as i told you we have a really good 20:31 20:31 student-to-teacher ratios 20:33 20:33 there are analog phones you don't need 20:35 20:35 much to make a call 20:37 20:37 so i think that just getting that call 20:40 20:40 you know finding out how are you don't 20:41 20:41 talk about education how are you doing 20:44 20:44 do you need any help you know just 20:47 20:47 generally just asking how you are i 20:50 20:50 think it's going to make a big 20:51 20:51 difference for a child 20:52 20:52 i can talk about you know you can do 20:54 20:54 conference calls all this but 20:56 20:56 at a minimum i think calling up a child 20:60 21:00 at least once a day is really will go a 21:03 21:03 long way in 21:05 21:05 um correcting for some of these mental 21:07 21:07 health social emotional 21:09 21:09 social um learning gaps that they're 21:12 21:12 facing 21:12 21:12 thank you for that dr gamake uh we are 21:15 21:15 open to questions now if you have any 21:17 21:17 questions uh please 21:19 21:19 uh send us a tweet to our advocate uh 21:22 21:22 twitter page or you can send in a 21:24 21:24 request 21:25 21:25 in this twitter space itself and we will 21:28 21:28 our host will help you 21:30 21:30 um unmute yourself and ask in questions 21:33 21:33 please also do ensure the questions are 21:36 21:36 within the topic that we are 21:38 21:38 uh discussing so if there are any 21:40 21:40 questions uh we can take them now for me 21:42 21:42 this is 21:49 21:49 myself as an adult i have two small 21:52 21:52 children who won in primary school 21:54 21:54 and the other one in preschool but i 21:56 21:56 have been an early adopter 21:58 21:58 with online education for myself and 22:01 22:01 i've been a follower of the khan academy 22:03 22:03 and salman khan so in his book new 22:06 22:06 school house he talked about 22:07 22:07 bite size learning so you have videos 22:12 22:12 that 22:12 22:12 uh last for maybe five minutes ten 22:14 22:14 minutes and it's a concept based thing 22:17 22:17 so you you you have a focused teaching 22:20 22:20 and then you revise it and then you move 22:24 22:24 on to the next concept 22:25 22:25 once you have mastered the skill i find 22:28 22:28 that to be extremely 22:29 22:29 effective but when i reflect on my two 22:32 22:32 children 22:33 22:33 uh the kind of mechanism that they are 22:36 22:36 using 22:37 22:37 it's the same classroom but done through 22:39 22:39 video conferencing so you have a teacher 22:41 22:41 and the teacher 22:42 22:42 all the children are online and then 22:45 22:45 they are luxury 22:46 22:46 but from an effectiveness perspective 22:48 22:48 the the methodology used by the khan 22:50 22:50 academy i find it significantly 22:54 22:54 more effective that my retention and 22:56 22:56 learning is much better than 22:57 22:57 listening to a general lecture that is 23:01 23:01 similar to a classroom but delivered 23:03 23:03 virtually 23:04 23:04 so my question is that does pedagogy 23:07 23:07 matter does it matter to the student 23:09 23:09 does it 23:10 23:10 can you have one size fit all kind of 23:13 23:13 pedagogy for all different students or 23:16 23:16 different people have different 23:18 23:18 mechanisms of learning 23:20 23:20 and second is that can you go with the 23:23 23:23 hybrid structure 23:24 23:24 where you kind of do one-on-one 23:27 23:27 uh to understand the concept and then 23:30 23:30 have a discussion session later 23:32 23:32 uh dr gamake dr dimel you can take it 23:35 23:35 out yeah i've i've read of the khan 23:37 23:37 academy and i've 23:38 23:38 heard of the work they are doing and i 23:41 23:41 completely agree with you 23:42 23:42 it's very good but one size 23:46 23:46 fit all will not work it has to be 23:50 23:50 if education is learning and it's active 23:52 23:52 learning and not 23:54 23:54 passive listening and just being 23:56 23:56 responsive to a didactic one-way 23:58 23:58 system of teaching that won't serve the 24:01 24:01 ideal purpose 24:02 24:02 but from what you said earlier if there 24:05 24:05 is an 24:05 24:05 online face-to-face classroom-like 24:09 24:09 setting but with computers with perfect 24:12 24:12 internet and there is a way in which the 24:15 24:15 teacher 24:16 24:16 can interact allowing students also to 24:19 24:19 respond 24:20 24:20 as and where necessary i'm sure it could 24:23 24:23 be 24:23 24:23 tailor-made so that it won't be a 24:26 24:26 one-size-fit-all 24:28 24:28 and it will cater to not really slow 24:30 24:30 learners but 24:31 24:31 the students with different types of 24:35 24:35 abilities and pedagogical kind of 24:38 24:38 differences 24:39 24:39 so i feel it's a very good thing but 24:42 24:42 again i'm reiterating we are looking at 24:46 24:46 such an initiative will serve only less 24:49 24:49 than five percent of students if you 24:51 24:51 look at the 24:51 24:51 overall uh point of view so 24:54 24:54 it's very good for privileged schools 24:57 24:57 for international schools maybe 24:59 24:59 private schools and certain privileged 25:00 25:00 homes but in terms of education policy 25:03 25:03 and from a government perspective 25:05 25:05 i think we have a long way to go to get 25:07 25:07 there mr murtaza that's that's my 25:09 25:09 opinion okay thank you for that dr 25:11 25:11 i'm glad uh mutasa bought these two 25:14 25:14 terms pedagogy and technology 25:16 25:16 i think you spend too much time on 25:19 25:19 technology 25:20 25:20 you know thinking about how to get 25:21 25:21 children online how to 25:23 25:23 deliver while they're in school deal or 25:25 25:25 how to deliver that we have to think of 25:27 25:27 a different pedagogy 25:28 25:28 and actually the big learning in some 25:31 25:31 ways 25:32 25:32 i would think it's actually if you think 25:33 25:33 about the bottom of the pyramid and how 25:35 25:35 we 25:36 25:36 so them the blended learning makes sense 25:38 25:38 okay so you can't have 25:40 25:40 face to face uh not face to face real 25:42 25:42 time classroom experience now what do we 25:45 25:45 do 25:45 25:45 just imagine you have some you have a 25:47 25:47 video on a flash drive 25:49 25:49 in fact actually we are trying this out 25:51 25:51 in some schools 25:52 25:52 we have some english lessons which are 25:54 25:54 on flash dress and the child when the 25:56 25:56 school is in session 25:58 25:58 uh so i think uh just until we get dr 26:01 26:01 gamake 26:01 26:01 back uh i just quickly like to ask you 26:05 26:05 regarding uh the press release on the 26:08 26:08 educational forum 26:10 26:10 you had mentioned about 26:13 26:13 teachers and vaccinating teachers 26:16 26:16 and considering them as front liners as 26:19 26:19 an option 26:20 26:20 can you tell us a little bit more about 26:22 26:22 this yes 26:23 26:23 because the countries that had a lot of 26:27 26:27 foresight with regards to the education 26:29 26:29 crisis 26:30 26:30 and countries that have begun to 26:32 26:32 seriously understand that this is going 26:34 26:34 to be an education catastrophe 26:36 26:36 unless things are done fast they 26:39 26:39 actually included teachers 26:41 26:41 into their early vaccination drives i'm 26:43 26:43 talking of some 26:44 26:44 countries in northern europe definitely 26:46 26:46 countries like singapore south korea in 26:48 26:48 southeast asia 26:50 26:50 some countries like israel i said and 26:52 26:52 certainly 26:53 26:53 uk now they have really started to speed 26:57 26:57 up 26:57 26:57 their vaccination of teachers and why is 26:59 26:59 that because they knew that the most 27:02 27:02 important thing is to start preparing to 27:05 27:05 open schools online education like we 27:08 27:08 all know is not real education 27:10 27:10 uh we can't keep fifty percent of the 27:12 27:12 children or more stuck at home 27:14 27:14 so they started to strategize and 27:16 27:16 strategic plans were made 27:19 27:19 still being made in some countries to 27:22 27:22 reopen schools no sooner the 27:26 27:26 the pandemic or rather the wave the 27:28 27:28 relevant wave of the pandemic 27:30 27:30 abates now let me just give you one 27:33 27:33 example 27:33 27:33 of uk singapore did the same thing 27:35 27:35 several months ago but 27:36 27:36 uk they declared in december 2020 27:40 27:40 that they were going to open schools in 27:42 27:42 three months by which time they had 27:44 27:44 already started the vaccination drive 27:46 27:46 and they were going to prioritize 27:48 27:48 teachers in a month or two 27:50 27:50 so teacher vaccinations necessarily had 27:53 27:53 to proceed 27:54 27:54 in school real time physical learning 27:58 27:58 so schools couldn't open until the 27:60 27:60 teachers were vaccinated with the second 28:02 28:02 dose 28:02 28:02 as well that's very important to listen 28:04 28:04 to so the 28:05 28:05 next point is that when teachers are 28:08 28:08 vaccinated 28:09 28:09 the question would arise about the 28:10 28:10 students because it's just one person 28:12 28:12 with a 30 28:13 28:13 member classroom and what about the 28:16 28:16 transmission from students so what they 28:18 28:18 incorporated into the teacher 28:19 28:19 vaccination drive 28:21 28:21 was regular meticulous 28:24 28:24 testing of the students not only did 28:27 28:27 they test the teachers 28:29 28:29 before and after vaccination they also 28:32 28:32 repetitively tested the students 28:34 28:34 and the senior students were given 28:37 28:37 simple test kits something even simpler 28:40 28:40 than the rapid antigen test that we all 28:43 28:43 know 28:43 28:43 they were called lateral flows uh 28:45 28:45 singapore uses 28:46 28:46 even a simpler test now and these 28:49 28:49 students are given this test kit and 28:51 28:51 they are asked to test 28:52 28:52 themselves twice a week if any one of 28:55 28:55 them tests positive they 28:56 28:56 inform the social worker or the the 28:58 28:58 nurse concerned and they do not come to 29:00 29:00 school 29:01 29:01 uh detour for the teachers when teachers 29:04 29:04 are vaccinated the transmission 29:06 29:06 rates are also very poor double dose 29:10 29:10 vaccine teachers very poor transmission 29:12 29:12 between teacher and teacher 29:14 29:14 similarly for the senior students so if 29:17 29:17 ever we are serious about 29:20 29:20 getting schools open because this 29:22 29:22 current wave 29:23 29:23 will wind down in four weeks or five 29:26 29:26 weeks or eight weeks 29:27 29:27 we have to be prepared for schools to 29:29 29:29 open and one of the 29:31 29:31 important prerequisites is to have 29:33 29:33 teachers 29:34 29:34 vaccinated at least with one dose so 29:37 29:37 they have to be part 29:39 29:39 of the uh frontline worker 29:42 29:42 team that we have been hearing so much 29:45 29:45 about 29:46 29:46 uh so i think we have a question from 29:48 29:48 our audience 29:49 29:49 uh please to go ahead and ask our 29:52 29:52 question to dr demille 29:54 29:54 while dr gamake reconnects with us i 29:56 29:56 think we have deleter with us 29:58 29:58 yeah hello i just um 30:02 30:02 have a suggestion to 30:05 30:05 make in terms of how do we get back to 30:09 30:09 um uh real 30:12 30:12 learning in the sense of you know we 30:15 30:15 have we have 30:16 30:16 schools which which are highly populated 30:19 30:19 on one hand so is there a way that we 30:21 30:21 could 30:22 30:22 we could um consider 30:25 30:25 resourcing differently in a way that the 30:29 30:29 local 30:29 30:29 school and the local area there is some 30:32 30:32 mechanism some support network um so the 30:34 30:34 children 30:35 30:35 of the local area get supported by the 30:38 30:38 by the school 30:39 30:39 and the networking in in that local area 30:42 30:42 as an interior why 30:44 30:44 could we not consider something like 30:46 30:46 that could we not 30:48 30:48 have a situation where children from 30:51 30:51 all parts of the country has to struggle 30:54 30:54 across 30:56 30:56 across cities to get to a central point 30:58 30:58 with large numbers of students why can't 31:00 31:00 we redistribute 31:02 31:02 in an interim arrangement um 31:05 31:05 in that manner using the local area 31:09 31:09 confining the students and teachers into 31:11 31:11 the local areas and redistributing the 31:13 31:13 resources 31:14 31:14 in that manner yes actually even more 31:17 31:17 than a 31:17 31:17 interim measure it could be the ultimate 31:20 31:20 measure because 31:21 31:21 we have something like 325 divisional 31:25 31:25 directors of education in charge of a 31:28 31:28 certain group of schools 31:29 31:29 in each division in parallel we have 31:32 31:32 something like 266 31:35 31:35 moh ministry of health divisions and 31:38 31:38 geographically if you 31:39 31:39 map them they sometimes overlap 31:42 31:42 with one another so when schools 31:45 31:45 have issues connected to health like it 31:48 31:48 was in the last 15 months 31:50 31:50 they always call on and use the 31:53 31:53 resources of 31:54 31:54 the most adjacent moh division that's 31:57 31:57 the ministry of health division 31:59 31:59 and the moh division has underneath that 32:01 32:01 umbrella 32:02 32:02 in addition to the moh it has the phi 32:05 32:05 the phn 32:06 32:06 the school health nurse and there's a 32:08 32:08 big team of health officers 32:10 32:10 now what we were proposing or we 32:13 32:13 we think could be an answer is firstly 32:16 32:16 the large schools the highly populated 32:19 32:19 urban 32:20 32:20 schools have to have a different 32:22 32:22 strategy to what i'm saying now 32:24 32:24 but these small schools that are 32:26 32:26 generally managed by the divisional 32:29 32:29 education director and the zonal 32:30 32:30 education director 32:32 32:32 with the moh divisions can independently 32:36 32:36 decide how and when they are going to 32:38 32:38 open schools i'm not saying immediately 32:41 32:41 but once this current wave abids 32:44 32:44 not only can they decide they apart from 32:46 32:46 deciding on sanitation 32:48 32:48 measures and so on they could also start 32:51 32:51 the testing system that i mentioned 32:53 32:53 and that's not very difficult the 32:56 32:56 minister of education has always had 32:58 32:58 a lot of development partners waiting to 32:60 32:60 help people like the world bank the adp 33:03 33:03 the unicef and so on and getting testing 33:06 33:06 kits for the teachers for the principals 33:09 33:09 for senior students i don't know i i 33:12 33:12 don't 33:12 33:12 think it's such a challenging situation 33:16 33:16 so once such a situation is in place 33:19 33:19 and if the teachers are getting 33:21 33:21 vaccinated 33:22 33:22 if the principal the regional education 33:26 33:26 authorities with the moh 33:28 33:28 take a decision that yes now this school 33:31 33:31 will be ready to open in a week or two 33:34 33:34 weeks 33:35 33:35 i feel they should be given the chance 33:37 33:37 to take that decision 33:39 33:39 the divisional authorities the zonal 33:41 33:41 authorities have to be empowered 33:44 33:44 of course in the larger schools a 33:45 33:45 different strategy 33:47 33:47 can has to be planned out but that too 33:49 33:49 is not 33:50 33:50 impossible because there are school 33:51 33:51 development societies parents teachers 33:54 33:54 associations 33:55 33:55 there's a very large community support 33:57 33:57 particularly for the larger schools 33:59 33:59 even for the not so large schools so i 34:02 34:02 think 34:02 34:02 without everything being controlled at 34:04 34:04 the center 34:06 34:06 without every directive being sent off 34:08 34:08 by the ministry of education 34:11 34:11 empowerment of the regional educational 34:13 34:13 officers 34:14 34:14 in collaboration with the ministry of 34:16 34:16 health 34:17 34:17 will pave the way for schools to reopen 34:21 34:21 if not in four weeks six weeks or 34:23 34:23 whenever 34:24 34:24 that has to be done because reopening 34:26 34:26 schools is a priority 34:28 34:28 like we have discussed all this time all 34:29 34:29 right we have a question 34:31 34:31 uh from one of our tweets do you know if 34:34 34:34 tutors and 34:35 34:35 other educators are supplementing what 34:38 34:38 schools 34:38 34:38 are unable to deliver effectively i 34:42 34:42 think tutors are supplementing again 34:45 34:45 through 34:46 34:46 different types of internet-based 34:47 34:47 education i'm not 100 34:50 34:50 sure of how effective it is and their 34:52 34:52 modalities 34:53 34:53 so chata may be able to add to that uh i 34:56 34:56 don't know about educators but i do know 34:57 34:57 that tuition masters 34:59 34:59 have been very active this last 12 to 15 35:02 35:02 months 35:03 35:03 so jata you need to add today yes learn 35:06 35:06 asia is doing a survey 35:08 35:08 a countrywide survey which we're doing 35:10 35:10 in india and sri lanka 35:13 35:13 a random sample survey representative 35:15 35:15 sample survey 35:17 35:17 and we ask there actually how much 35:20 35:20 how many hours of help they got from 35:24 35:24 that tuition masters 35:25 35:25 and i think there is a if you take 35:28 35:28 advanced level 35:29 35:29 education it is a open secret 35:33 35:33 that it's 100 driven by tuition 35:36 35:36 the teachers just can't cope with the 35:38 35:38 content 35:40 35:40 and we just have too much content and 35:42 35:42 tuition is essential so 35:44 35:44 it's driven by tuition and i think the 35:47 35:47 tuition masters are somehow reaching out 35:49 35:49 to these students advanced level 35:51 35:51 students at a different level they are 35:52 35:52 more motivated 35:54 35:54 they will somehow um find the internet 35:56 35:56 connection 35:57 35:57 and get their help if they need from 36:00 36:00 tutor so i think for advanced 36:02 36:02 students it must be very very high 36:05 36:05 um they're probably preferentially 36:07 36:07 leaving their 36:08 36:08 zoom classes with their teachers and 36:10 36:10 going to the tuition master so there's 36:12 36:12 competition now 36:14 36:14 uh between teachers and um tuition 36:17 36:17 masters from the anecdotally 36:18 36:18 uh anecdotal evidence but we will be 36:21 36:21 getting survey data 36:23 36:23 uh in a few months uh for the others i 36:26 36:26 don't know 36:26 36:26 how much for all level and other classes 36:29 36:29 it will not be 36:30 36:30 as the coverage will not be as uh full 36:33 36:33 as in a level but i think in available 36:35 36:35 classes 36:36 36:36 uh the tuition masters are meeting the 36:39 36:39 demand i think right 36:40 36:40 uh there's another question dr gamake 36:43 36:43 and it is 36:44 36:44 in terms of immediate and long-term 36:46 36:46 education policy reactions 36:49 36:49 uh what should be prioritized in terms 36:52 36:52 of access to technology 36:53 36:53 and learning platforms teaching up 36:55 36:55 skills paper-based exam system 36:58 36:58 uh what what should be prioritized 37:02 37:02 um i think you know we need to 37:04 37:04 prioritize the pedagogy 37:06 37:06 technology will follow the pedagogy uh 37:08 37:08 determines the technology and 37:10 37:10 if we the priority i think is 37:14 37:14 uh to reduce content to reduce exams 37:18 37:18 so that if the schools are closed at 37:21 37:21 short notice 37:22 37:22 you know you are able to deliver and you 37:24 37:24 are able to educate the child 37:26 37:26 without you know you need to always now 37:29 37:29 think of distance more than 37:31 37:31 um class based as something that 37:34 37:34 is going to be interchangeable so i 37:36 37:36 think the pedagogy has to 37:38 37:38 change the curricula has to change by 37:41 37:41 change 37:41 37:41 i don't mean a lot of you know 37:45 37:45 people at national institute of 37:46 37:46 education sitting down 37:48 37:48 and writing new curricula just take 37:51 37:51 stuff 37:51 37:51 out that's essentially what they have to 37:53 37:53 do take the exams out take stuff out 37:56 37:56 and let teachers identify the core 37:59 37:59 subjects 37:59 37:59 and let teachers um do what you call 38:03 38:03 integrated integrated teaching integrate 38:06 38:06 across 38:07 38:07 subjects uh integrate within subjects 38:10 38:10 and change the assessment so that we 38:13 38:13 actually use 38:14 38:14 tests only for core subjects we are a 38:17 38:17 sort of a 38:18 38:18 you have to build a base of knowledge 38:20 38:20 and build on that otherwise you can't 38:22 38:22 move forward 38:23 38:23 but for most other subjects i think it 38:25 38:25 has to be project based 38:27 38:27 and the children should be judged by 38:29 38:29 their portfolios not by 38:31 38:31 exams for example citizenship health 38:34 38:34 and health and sports 38:37 38:37 those things you should not be tested as 38:40 38:40 things are 38:41 38:41 children not spend the teachers spend so 38:44 38:44 much time 38:45 38:45 teaching the theory theory of sports how 38:48 38:48 do you hand a baton to a child 38:51 38:51 in a relay race how do you hand the 38:53 38:53 baton 38:54 38:54 they take about two pages to describe 38:56 38:56 that so many pictures and by the time 38:58 38:58 the teacher finishes 38:60 38:60 the description and the students have 39:02 39:02 taken the notes 39:03 39:03 there's no time to go out and do a real 39:05 39:05 relay just hand the button to another 39:08 39:08 guide and see how it works so i think 39:11 39:11 um we really have to let focus less on 39:14 39:14 the technology and more on pedagogy 39:16 39:16 technology we found out that actually 39:19 39:19 students and teachers very pretty 39:21 39:21 quickly very quickly they caught up with 39:24 39:24 the 39:24 39:24 technology so i think the focus should 39:26 39:26 be on pedagogy 39:28 39:28 so i think we have another question from 39:30 39:30 learn with comics 39:35 39:35 my name is i work for a social impact 39:38 39:38 startup from 39:39 39:39 india called learn with comics so what 39:41 39:41 we do basically 39:42 39:42 is um we create comics 39:45 39:45 out of school lessons so i was listening 39:48 39:48 to what uh dr dumel and what gamade is 39:51 39:51 dr martin ganges i mean those are 39:54 39:54 absolutely fantastic points you know 39:56 39:56 engagement versus 39:57 39:57 attendance that is very very important 39:60 39:60 like in india 40:00 40:00 or like in sri lanka in india also there 40:03 40:03 are a lot of government schools 40:05 40:05 uh a lot and what we have done is uh 40:07 40:07 like 40:08 40:08 places like whatsapp facebook have 40:10 40:10 played a vital role 40:12 40:12 in taking it to rural india education 40:14 40:14 where teachers have immediately adapted 40:16 40:16 over the last 40:17 40:17 three four months so what we did i think 40:20 40:20 one mr murtaza was saying 40:21 40:21 so what we tried was trying to make 40:23 40:23 bite-sized learning 40:25 40:25 right for example uh for ex if you want 40:27 40:27 to teach something like 40:28 40:28 uh force or motion we tried making small 40:32 40:32 one minute content which is completely 40:34 40:34 language agnostic anybody can see a 40:36 40:36 content and understand 40:37 40:37 you know see a video and understand 40:38 40:38 what's going on even if there's no 40:40 40:40 language to it 40:41 40:41 so we tried putting it out on facebook 40:43 40:43 because what we have realized we tried a 40:46 40:46 sample with around thousand students in 40:48 40:48 india 40:49 40:49 you know this larger scheme of things 40:51 40:51 thousands a very very small 40:52 40:52 number in india so we tried it with 40:55 40:55 schools private schools as well as 40:57 40:57 government schools 40:58 40:58 so what we noticed was generally a very 41:00 41:00 very low attention span 41:02 41:02 it's like parents and teachers could not 41:05 41:05 get children to sit in front of a 41:07 41:07 computer 41:08 41:08 for three and a half minutes right when 41:10 41:10 you say education 41:12 41:12 so do you think uh dr dimel madame 41:15 41:15 gamake 41:15 41:15 like how is how will that change because 41:18 41:18 as you said they've been out of school 41:19 41:19 for almost 16 months 41:21 41:21 you know sporadically they probably went 41:23 41:23 and came back but overall that mindset 41:25 41:25 has changed the learning mindset has 41:27 41:27 changed 41:28 41:28 even if they do go to school tomorrow 41:31 41:31 will they be able to you know 41:32 41:32 just get into the system without any 41:35 41:35 problem 41:36 41:36 should we focus on mental health getting 41:38 41:38 them back into the system 41:39 41:39 or should we focus on education because 41:42 41:42 it's very very confusing uh for parents 41:44 41:44 uh in this in this entire scheme of 41:46 41:46 things doctor gavriel i think 41:48 41:48 you can start and then dr demaio can 41:51 41:51 follow okay 41:52 41:52 yes when they come back to school let's 41:54 41:54 say this third wave subsides and we get 41:56 41:56 them back to school 41:57 41:57 um as i said you know we need to focus 41:60 41:60 on 42:00 42:00 essential learning competencies just 42:03 42:03 test their 42:04 42:04 their basic math and their basic 42:06 42:06 language and do remedial classes for 42:08 42:08 those 42:08 42:08 i think that should be a priority and 42:11 42:11 their mental health of course 42:12 42:12 i mean just coming back and interacting 42:15 42:15 with children is going to make 42:16 42:16 a big difference so i think you know 42:19 42:19 even 42:20 42:20 about the using comics for learning i 42:23 42:23 mean all those are fine 42:25 42:25 but as i said if your sports if sports 42:28 42:28 is a subject that is tested 42:31 42:31 then sports is not going to happen that 42:33 42:33 one teacher just told me he 42:35 42:35 does not do any sports outside because 42:37 42:37 once he finished the notes 42:39 42:39 which they need for their test which 42:42 42:42 takes place every quarter every term for 42:45 42:45 sports there's a written test 42:47 42:47 so unless we change the assessments 42:50 42:50 and the not the curricula the 42:52 42:52 assessments 42:53 42:53 all these nice tools are not going to 42:55 42:55 work all the technology so i think we 42:57 42:57 need to start 42:58 42:58 with the assessments really reducing the 43:01 43:01 exams 43:02 43:02 uh just to add to what sujata said 43:06 43:06 um supposing the current wave in sri 43:10 43:10 lanka 43:10 43:10 and india and most parts of the world 43:12 43:12 subsides and kids start 43:14 43:14 going into school in four to five weeks 43:15 43:15 or more 43:17 43:17 i think we need to be extremely 43:18 43:18 conscious of the fact that these are 43:20 43:20 kids 43:20 43:20 who haven't been with a formal education 43:23 43:23 for one year 43:24 43:24 say for example a child was in grade 43:27 43:27 four 43:28 43:28 when schools closed last year 43:30 43:30 automatically has now come into grade 43:33 43:33 five in 2021 may or june or july 43:37 43:37 uh he's also probably preparing for his 43:40 43:40 primary school leaving 43:41 43:41 exam like in the grade 5 scholarship 43:44 43:44 exam in sri lanka 43:46 43:46 assuming that he has actually developed 43:50 43:50 um educationally from grade four to 43:52 43:52 grade five 43:53 43:53 when in fact he has been without a good 43:56 43:56 formal education so what some of the 43:60 43:60 schools in some parts of the world are 44:02 44:02 doing 44:02 44:02 is they have applied diagnostic tests 44:05 44:05 of course age appropriate grade 44:08 44:08 appropriate 44:09 44:09 to see what the student has learned what 44:12 44:12 the student hasn't learned 44:14 44:14 is he in a position to take on a higher 44:16 44:16 grade 44:17 44:17 or is he having a major covered learning 44:21 44:21 loss 44:22 44:22 covet learning loss is now a 44:24 44:24 nomenclature that has come very much 44:26 44:26 into the public domain and education is 44:28 44:28 specialists in this area 44:30 44:30 globally are now referring to this and a 44:32 44:32 covet learning loss would actually 44:34 44:34 define 44:35 44:35 the learning gap the learning lag 44:38 44:38 the deficiencies a student would have 44:41 44:41 had 44:41 44:41 experience during these last 15 or 16 44:44 44:44 months 44:45 44:45 so if without taking any of these into 44:48 44:48 consideration 44:49 44:49 the student jumps from grade four to 44:51 44:51 grade five 44:52 44:52 and immediately has to face exams and 44:55 44:55 the teacher picks up 44:56 44:56 the grade five program and the 44:58 44:58 curriculum forgetting 44:60 45:00 that he's been without anything for 14 45:02 45:02 15 months can you imagine 45:04 45:04 the mental trauma the agony that student 45:07 45:07 is going to face 45:09 45:09 so that is why the world bank has 45:11 45:11 actually published on their blogs 45:13 45:13 certain types of diagnostic tests that 45:15 45:15 can be used 45:16 45:16 some countries are already using it 45:18 45:18 there are some countries 45:19 45:19 where the schools have created 45:23 45:23 covered learning academic task forces 45:26 45:26 co-worked academic recovery plans again 45:30 45:30 grade specific 45:31 45:31 so that there is a big allowance given 45:33 45:33 kids are not allowed to face 45:35 45:35 tests examinations immediately they are 45:38 45:38 allowed to settle down 45:40 45:40 collect themselves to understand where 45:42 45:42 they are what they missed 45:44 45:44 for the last one and a half years then 45:46 45:46 gradually get accustomed to education 45:48 45:48 back again 45:50 45:50 so i think whatever tools we use 45:52 45:52 whatever 45:53 45:53 techniques we use we need to be 45:54 45:54 extremely cognizant of that 45:56 45:56 emotional setback 45:59 45:59 these children have had to undergo this 46:02 46:02 during the pandemic 46:03 46:03 we have another question um what do you 46:06 46:06 think 46:07 46:07 about market forces at work during this 46:10 46:10 crisis 46:10 46:10 dr gamble would you like to take that up 46:13 46:13 market forces 46:14 46:14 meaning um i guess tuition masters 46:17 46:17 and various vendors i would think 46:22 46:22 yes uh the question was about the market 46:25 46:25 system 46:25 46:25 and has it worked well um 46:28 46:28 is what was asked yes hmm market system 46:32 46:32 for education 46:34 46:34 actually for school education uh 46:36 46:36 particularly for 46:37 46:37 up to junior 12 3 i think the government 46:41 46:41 market forces 46:42 46:42 really don't work well for these 46:44 46:44 children 46:45 46:45 because it's not about content as you 46:48 46:48 know as though 46:48 46:48 i was saying as i said it's about 46:51 46:51 you know socializing it's about 46:53 46:53 interaction with 46:55 46:55 the teachers and so it's 46:58 46:58 market you really need that i think 47:02 47:02 private education market forces 47:06 47:06 market solutions really don't work well 47:09 47:09 for 47:10 47:10 school education i would think but what 47:13 47:13 what we need is within public education 47:16 47:16 we need competition 47:18 47:18 i mean our ministry can really bring 47:20 47:20 market forces competition 47:22 47:22 not market forces competition into the 47:25 47:25 school system 47:25 47:25 really nicely you know we have nine 47:27 47:27 promises 47:29 47:29 you really give them outcomes you really 47:32 47:32 give them targets and let them compete 47:34 47:34 and the promises have we have zones we 47:37 47:37 have divisions 47:38 47:38 so we can really uh bring competition 47:41 47:41 into play 47:42 47:42 and what's the problem is our ministry 47:45 47:45 does not realize that it tries to 47:47 47:47 orchest everything from the center 47:49 47:49 when it should be actually orchestrating 47:51 47:51 like some maestro you know 47:53 47:53 the nine provinces just play them like a 47:56 47:56 nice orchestra and get them to you know 47:58 47:58 just find their strengths and 48:00 48:00 but always focus on outcomes 48:04 48:04 have you get get the children the 48:06 48:06 learning outcomes 48:07 48:07 their social behavioral outcomes those 48:10 48:10 also we can actually 48:11 48:11 um social behavioral outcomes of course 48:14 48:14 you can you should not be measuring the 48:15 48:15 children you should be submission in the 48:17 48:17 schools 48:18 48:18 are the schools giving the social 48:19 48:19 behavioral 48:22 48:22 schools creating the conditions for good 48:24 48:24 social behavioral 48:25 48:25 outcomes so really we i don't know about 48:28 48:28 market forces but we can really bring 48:30 48:30 competition 48:31 48:31 within the public sector to really 48:33 48:33 improve the school system 48:35 48:35 and even this is not a bad time to start 48:38 48:38 that 48:38 48:38 uh we have a question from miss eromy 48:41 48:41 pereira 48:42 48:42 uh she has two questions firstly um 48:45 48:45 what data is available about teachers 48:49 48:49 and their level 48:50 48:50 of connectivity and the second 48:53 48:53 what support do teachers and students 48:56 48:56 from government schools have 48:58 48:58 in terms of data or devices that 49:01 49:01 would enable them to teach or follow the 49:04 49:04 condensed curriculums 49:06 49:06 that is being followed at the moment um 49:09 49:09 dr demille i think you can start and dr 49:11 49:11 gamake 49:12 49:12 can add after in terms of numbers how 49:14 49:14 many teachers out of the population 49:16 49:16 of 250 000 uh are connected 49:19 49:19 to internet facilities or what kind of 49:22 49:22 device penetration is there i don't have 49:24 49:24 the numbers 49:25 49:25 perhaps sujata has but what came out in 49:28 49:28 this 49:28 49:28 pandemic period was that teachers 49:31 49:31 started to send out like we mentioned 49:34 49:34 whatsapp using whatsapp uh pdf 49:37 49:37 notes bulk notes and also they connected 49:41 49:41 on facebook to a large degree 49:43 49:43 from what we know so a substantial 49:45 49:45 number of teachers i cannot give you an 49:47 49:47 exact percentage 49:48 49:48 obviously had some kind of device 49:51 49:51 accessibility and internet 49:53 49:53 accessibility as well but i'm going to 49:55 49:55 allow sujata to expand on that but 49:57 49:57 before i leave i just want to say 49:60 49:60 that we must understand that teachers 50:03 50:03 will globally teachers are not the best 50:06 50:06 paid of public servants 50:08 50:08 actually they have a very small amount 50:11 50:11 of 50:11 50:11 allowances on top of their salary 50:15 50:15 now given that situation with all the 50:18 50:18 handicaps teachers have to undergo we 50:20 50:20 are now 50:20 50:20 expecting them to use their own 50:22 50:22 telephones 50:23 50:23 use their own data use their own bills 50:27 50:27 to pay for all these connections that we 50:29 50:29 are expecting them to establish with 50:31 50:31 students 50:33 50:33 they are the most stressed 50:36 50:36 in this spending period much more than 50:39 50:39 students i 50:40 50:40 would think because the principal and 50:43 50:43 the ministry and the zonal officers 50:45 50:45 expect the teacher 50:46 50:46 to deliver whatever form of education 50:49 50:49 the teacher can 50:50 50:50 and the teacher has to make do with 50:53 50:53 maybe the small 50:54 50:54 phone he has all the little bit of data 50:56 50:56 he's collecting money 50:58 50:58 and reloading his data cards with so i 51:02 51:02 personally feel the teachers have been 51:04 51:04 poorly treated 51:06 51:06 uh all of them most of them rather 51:08 51:08 extremely dedicated and they try their 51:11 51:11 level best to make up for this 51:14 51:14 learning losses during the pandemic 51:16 51:16 period but 51:17 51:17 in terms of how they are compensated i 51:20 51:20 really don't know 51:21 51:21 and we also know that they are not 51:23 51:23 considered frontline workers 51:24 51:24 and that they have not been even 51:26 51:26 prioritized in the vaccination campaign 51:29 51:29 i think we always like to think about 51:32 51:32 giving devices to children you know we 51:35 51:35 had this one laptop 51:36 51:36 per child and i think it's olpc 51:39 51:39 was that the acronym i remember saying 51:42 51:42 it's writing a column about then it 51:44 51:44 should be olpt 51:45 51:45 first one laptop per teacher i mean 51:49 51:49 it's teachers don't make such cute 51:51 51:51 pictures you know 51:52 51:52 the children make cute pictures you like 51:54 51:54 to give out laptops to them but the 51:56 51:56 priority should be teachers 51:58 51:58 give a teacher laptop give them the best 52:00 52:00 um 52:01 52:01 software give them the overhead 52:03 52:03 projectors the powerpoint that's where 52:05 52:05 the technology should be 52:07 52:07 and i think we really um need to bring 52:10 52:10 the technology back to the teacher 52:12 52:12 because what if the teacher has a 52:13 52:13 technology then 52:14 52:14 she's the one who will be actually 52:16 52:16 communicating the content to the 52:17 52:17 children 52:18 52:18 so and also children are not going to 52:21 52:21 have a 52:21 52:21 device in their hand in the classroom 52:24 52:24 that is a really flawed 52:25 52:25 idea that you know in finland they don't 52:29 52:29 use 52:30 52:30 devices in the classroom it's all used 52:32 52:32 outside the classroom at home 52:34 52:34 so i think it's a very good question yes 52:36 52:36 we should focus on 52:38 52:38 uh technology for teachers and we need 52:40 52:40 to change some of this 52:41 52:41 terminology like olpc should be changed 52:44 52:44 to olpt 52:46 52:46 tabs for teachers first i would say i 52:48 52:48 think this is 52:49 52:49 uh we got our priorities wrong all right 52:52 52:52 i think we have one last question before 52:55 52:55 we wrap up 52:56 52:56 uh and that is by shannani uh 52:59 52:59 isn't this the chance for destructive 53:02 53:02 innovation 53:03 53:03 given that our system has serious issues 53:06 53:06 due to the volume of curriculum 53:08 53:08 and assessment formats uh there has been 53:11 53:11 a mention 53:12 53:12 of uh pedagi is their scope for 53:15 53:15 considering ib 53:17 53:17 uh regio emilio and finnish models which 53:20 53:20 encourage a project 53:23 53:23 uh dr gamke would you like to start yeah 53:26 53:26 absolutely that's a 53:27 53:27 very good question too i think in this 53:30 53:30 session 53:31 53:31 yes this is i think indeed an 53:33 53:33 opportunity for disruption 53:34 53:34 uh and disruption i think again 53:37 53:37 beginning with the bottom of the pyramid 53:39 53:39 because this is this 50 percent 53:42 53:42 mind you even when schools are in 53:44 53:44 session 53:45 53:45 they are under the radar exams are 53:47 53:47 designed for 53:49 53:49 you know people who want to take more 53:50 53:50 exams and you know want to take more and 53:52 53:52 more exams 53:54 53:54 so this is a really good time to focus 53:57 53:57 on this uh 50 who are 54:00 54:00 at the bottom of the pyramid and um the 54:03 54:03 curriculum changes that i'm targeted for 54:06 54:06 2023 54:07 54:07 this is a good time to bring them about 54:09 54:09 and 54:10 54:10 if the national minister of education 54:12 54:12 was thinking of people sitting down and 54:14 54:14 writing 54:14 54:14 uh content no just define the learning 54:18 54:18 outcomes and let teachers come up with 54:20 54:20 their own interpretations of that 54:23 54:23 because all you need to focus on in 54:26 54:26 outcomes and let the teachers decide the 54:28 54:28 process so 54:29 54:29 right now it's hard for the center to do 54:32 54:32 all that they have to give it over to 54:34 54:34 the teachers and the teachers are 54:35 54:35 innovating 54:36 54:36 and i think a lot of innovations are 54:38 54:38 happening at the school level 54:40 54:40 in the rural areas the zonal directors 54:43 54:43 they are doing all kinds of creative 54:44 54:44 things 54:45 54:45 so i think when school start we are 54:47 54:47 going to see 54:48 54:48 more empowered invigorated 54:51 54:51 peripheral authorities so i think 54:55 54:55 this is indeed a time for disruptive 54:57 54:57 innovation 55:00 55:00 all right doctor do you have any fun 55:02 55:02 talk um except they'll say that i 55:04 55:04 totally endorse 55:06 55:06 that suggestion and also what sujata 55:08 55:08 said indeed this 55:09 55:09 is the time if not now when uh 55:12 55:12 definitely we cannot go back to the 55:15 55:15 nie designed 13 subject 55:18 55:18 rk curriculum we have to change and 55:22 55:22 shift to the foundational skills make 55:25 55:25 the curriculum compressed and also make 55:28 55:28 it interesting for the students 55:30 55:30 most importantly for the ministry to 55:33 55:33 take the decision 55:34 55:34 to empower the schools empower the 55:37 55:37 teachers 55:38 55:38 and the educators in the periphery and 55:41 55:41 not 55:41 55:41 just do a top-down approach but allow 55:44 55:44 them to be creative and innovate 55:46 55:46 because they do an excellent job when 55:48 55:48 allowed to do so 55:50 55:50 thank you so i think that brings us to 55:52 55:52 the 55:53 55:53 end of our discussion thank you very 55:55 55:55 much dr dimel and dr kamage and to all 55:58 55:58 our participants and listeners here 56:00 56:00 today and if you have 56:02 56:02 any more questions please drop in a 56:04 56:04 tweet and tag advocate and dr sajatha 56:06 56:06 gamake 56:07 56:07 and we will try to get your questions 56:09 56:09 answered thank you all very much have a 56:11 56:11 great thank you 56:12 56:12 thank you